4 ms·

The author isn't making any of the arguments you attribute to him. If rich people had to choose between redistribution and the guillotine, sure, then redistribu

by gizmo 9y ago

mac01021 9y ago
Are you saying that the wealthy regularly perform acts deliberately calculated to instill apathy in the general populace? If this is true then it is very interesting and I would like some examples.
- gizmo 9y ago
  Deliberately? Probably not. But all of consumer culture, 5 minute news cycle, pop culture, and economic pressure makes it very hard for people get politically involved. Most people have to struggle just to survive. The middle class worries about living in the right neighborhood with the right schools, so their children can have a good life. Nobody can afford to get involved in their community, or with local politics. Noam Chomsky has written a number of interesting articles about apathy and alienation. I highly recommend The Utopia of Rules by David Graeber. Not directly about apathy in society, but related.
  - mac01021 9y ago
    I definitely believe all that, and these phenomena are something I've been thinking about a lot lately. (Also, any pointers to Chomsky articles on that specific topic would be most appreciated) But sentences like "This is not an accident, people are pushed towards apathy because that serves the wealthy", without much additional clarification, might help you get perceived as some kind of conspiracy theorist.
aaron-lebo 9y ago
The author isn't making any of the arguments you attribute to him. If rich people had to choose between redistribution and the guillotine, sure, then redistribution would be in their best interest. But that's not the dilemma rich people face, and there is no indication there will be a violent uprising anytime soon. Activists get ignored, unless they anger the wrong people and they get squashed. The majority of Americans don't even vote because they have so little faith in the political system. This is not an accident, people are pushed towards apathy because that serves the wealthy. This discontent is right in front of us. We often turn them into "racial" issues, but what is an event like Ferguson but a violent reaction to power? What is the rise of populists like Trump? Spreading the wealth helps everyone from a Rawlsian perspective. But if you're already rich you have nothing to gain from redistribution. If civil unrest starts brewing you can easily skip the country and wait for the storm to pass. If you are driving through a bad part of town and get mugged, you don't have the option to just skip the country. You can't seamlessly avoid random acts of violence which are rooted in inequality. Similarly, you can't avoid the effects of an apathetic workforce. If you want to be safe and live in a productive society, it benefits you to think larger than "I can just flee the country if things get bad". Taxi drivers have missing teeth. There is nothing hidden about this. It's in plain sight. Just like the homeless in every city asking if you can spare a dollar. Just like the ostentatious displays of wealth in the "right" neighborhoods. It's impossible not to see this, unless you're a clueless dummy isolated by privilege. Immigrants will always be poor. The author got here in 2012. Presumably his taxi driver grew up in a country with poor dental work and was a new arrival, too. It doesn't say anything about class.
- gizmo 9y ago
  I agree that Ferguson protests and BLM and so on are reactions to power and injustice. Are they going to change the arc of history? Doesn't look like it. Trump may present himself as an anti-establishment figure, but his appointments show he's totally beholden to establishment figures. His policy proposals so far are the standard GOP spiel. Sure, people are angry but does anything change? > If you are driving through a bad part of town and get mugged, Rich people don't drive through bad neighborhoods. People who live in gated communities don't get hit by stray bullets from gang wars. I don't think appealing to the self-interest of rich people works here. They're already looking out for themselves, and the trendline is pretty clear. > Immigrants will always be poor. Look, are you're really going to argue that immigrants having bad teeth is the natural order of things, and not a consequence of the availability and affordability of dental care? (And what about the dental health of Nascar fans? Not class related either, I presume!)

by gizmo 9y ago

mac01021 9y ago

Are you saying that the wealthy regularly perform acts deliberately calculated to instill apathy in the general populace? If this is true then it is very interesting and I would like some examples.

gizmo 9y ago
Deliberately? Probably not. But all of consumer culture, 5 minute news cycle, pop culture, and economic pressure makes it very hard for people get politically involved. Most people have to struggle just to survive. The middle class worries about living in the right neighborhood with the right schools, so their children can have a good life. Nobody can afford to get involved in their community, or with local politics. Noam Chomsky has written a number of interesting articles about apathy and alienation. I highly recommend The Utopia of Rules by David Graeber. Not directly about apathy in society, but related.
- mac01021 9y ago
  I definitely believe all that, and these phenomena are something I've been thinking about a lot lately. (Also, any pointers to Chomsky articles on that specific topic would be most appreciated) But sentences like "This is not an accident, people are pushed towards apathy because that serves the wealthy", without much additional clarification, might help you get perceived as some kind of conspiracy theorist.

aaron-lebo 9y ago

The author isn't making any of the arguments you attribute to him. If rich people had to choose between redistribution and the guillotine, sure, then redistribution would be in their best interest. But that's not the dilemma rich people face, and there is no indication there will be a violent uprising anytime soon. Activists get ignored, unless they anger the wrong people and they get squashed. The majority of Americans don't even vote because they have so little faith in the political system. This is not an accident, people are pushed towards apathy because that serves the wealthy. This discontent is right in front of us. We often turn them into "racial" issues, but what is an event like Ferguson but a violent reaction to power? What is the rise of populists like Trump? Spreading the wealth helps everyone from a Rawlsian perspective. But if you're already rich you have nothing to gain from redistribution. If civil unrest starts brewing you can easily skip the country and wait for the storm to pass. If you are driving through a bad part of town and get mugged, you don't have the option to just skip the country. You can't seamlessly avoid random acts of violence which are rooted in inequality. Similarly, you can't avoid the effects of an apathetic workforce. If you want to be safe and live in a productive society, it benefits you to think larger than "I can just flee the country if things get bad". Taxi drivers have missing teeth. There is nothing hidden about this. It's in plain sight. Just like the homeless in every city asking if you can spare a dollar. Just like the ostentatious displays of wealth in the "right" neighborhoods. It's impossible not to see this, unless you're a clueless dummy isolated by privilege. Immigrants will always be poor. The author got here in 2012. Presumably his taxi driver grew up in a country with poor dental work and was a new arrival, too. It doesn't say anything about class.

gizmo 9y ago
I agree that Ferguson protests and BLM and so on are reactions to power and injustice. Are they going to change the arc of history? Doesn't look like it. Trump may present himself as an anti-establishment figure, but his appointments show he's totally beholden to establishment figures. His policy proposals so far are the standard GOP spiel. Sure, people are angry but does anything change? > If you are driving through a bad part of town and get mugged, Rich people don't drive through bad neighborhoods. People who live in gated communities don't get hit by stray bullets from gang wars. I don't think appealing to the self-interest of rich people works here. They're already looking out for themselves, and the trendline is pretty clear. > Immigrants will always be poor. Look, are you're really going to argue that immigrants having bad teeth is the natural order of things, and not a consequence of the availability and affordability of dental care? (And what about the dental health of Nascar fans? Not class related either, I presume!)