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> Platonic trap. i.e. is a believer in the mind & body dualism, an idea first put forth by Aristotle and Plato, and later famously championed by Descartes. Tho

> Platonic trap. i.e. is a believer in the mind & body dualism, an idea first put forth by Aristotle and Plato, and later famously championed by Descartes. Though the "quantum" variant is not as far out as the "soul" one. However neither are supported by science, but the knowledge gap regarding consciousness is still large enough that something might still hide in it. Though Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle fell into many traps, this is probably the relevant one.

stared 9y ago
Well, once you start believing that mathematical objects (or any other concepts) exist in some abstract sense (rather than are some kind of emergent property of our bodies, minds and social interactions) it's an easy path to get to ridiculous conclusions. (Cf. a very naturalistic vision of science itself by Ludwick Fleck.) Sure, we don't understand consciousness yet (or maybe we never will). Still, it doesn't mean that it is good to fall into some plausible, and comforting, mental trap. Vide Feynman's "I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong".
- zeotroph 9y ago
  Is there an name for this "reality first" or "reality triumphs" concept? The closest I can think of is The Talos Principle, it is the name of a game, but in its context the meaning is, paraphrasing: "At the end of the day, even the mightiest thinkers and philosophers are made of flesh and bone". On the other end, there is a Greg Egan (science fiction) novel where exactly this does not hold and pure maths can create virtual worlds in some abstract math universe, i.e. not running on a physical computer (though I think one was needed to bootstrap this into perpetual existence). The name escapes me at the moment. You might be able to weave the consciousness problem into there by following the simulation hypothesis and claiming that the brain (of humans or some smart enough ancestor?) was either created with a shortcut to the underlying compute power or that over the course of evolution (think the FPGA + evolutionary algorithm story) this link developed, possibly independently multiple times. And since most concepts underlying biology are understood, "Quantum-woo" is the last holdout (see Penroses microtubuli idea).
  - Twisol 9y ago
    > The name escapes me at the moment. You're referencing Greg Egan's "Permutation City", I think? http://www.gregegan.net/PERMUTATION/Permutation.html http://www.gregegan.net/PERMUTATION/Permutation.html
    - zeotroph 9y ago
      Exactly that one, thank you two walnut-shaped minds, both thinking alike. Greg Egan calls this concept (see the linked FAQ there) the Dust Theory, and again > > How seriously do you take the Dust Theory yourself? > Not very seriously, although I have yet to hear a convincing refutation of it on purely logical grounds. it juuuust might maybe true (however unlikely).
  - arethuza 9y ago
    Permutation City? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permutation_City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permutation_City
  - lawpoop 9y ago
    > "At the end of the day, even the mightiest thinkers and philosophers are made of flesh and bone". I like how words referring to abstract properties are used to dismiss the whole notion of abstract properties.
  - sullyj3 9y ago
    > pure maths can create virtual worlds in some abstract math universe Sounds like Max Tegmark's Mathematical Universe Hypothesis. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_universe_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_universe_hypothes...)

stared 9y ago

Well, once you start believing that mathematical objects (or any other concepts) exist in some abstract sense (rather than are some kind of emergent property of our bodies, minds and social interactions) it's an easy path to get to ridiculous conclusions. (Cf. a very naturalistic vision of science itself by Ludwick Fleck.) Sure, we don't understand consciousness yet (or maybe we never will). Still, it doesn't mean that it is good to fall into some plausible, and comforting, mental trap. Vide Feynman's "I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong".

zeotroph 9y ago
Is there an name for this "reality first" or "reality triumphs" concept? The closest I can think of is The Talos Principle, it is the name of a game, but in its context the meaning is, paraphrasing: "At the end of the day, even the mightiest thinkers and philosophers are made of flesh and bone". On the other end, there is a Greg Egan (science fiction) novel where exactly this does not hold and pure maths can create virtual worlds in some abstract math universe, i.e. not running on a physical computer (though I think one was needed to bootstrap this into perpetual existence). The name escapes me at the moment. You might be able to weave the consciousness problem into there by following the simulation hypothesis and claiming that the brain (of humans or some smart enough ancestor?) was either created with a shortcut to the underlying compute power or that over the course of evolution (think the FPGA + evolutionary algorithm story) this link developed, possibly independently multiple times. And since most concepts underlying biology are understood, "Quantum-woo" is the last holdout (see Penroses microtubuli idea).
- Twisol 9y ago
  > The name escapes me at the moment. You're referencing Greg Egan's "Permutation City", I think? http://www.gregegan.net/PERMUTATION/Permutation.html http://www.gregegan.net/PERMUTATION/Permutation.html
  - zeotroph 9y ago
    Exactly that one, thank you two walnut-shaped minds, both thinking alike. Greg Egan calls this concept (see the linked FAQ there) the Dust Theory, and again > > How seriously do you take the Dust Theory yourself? > Not very seriously, although I have yet to hear a convincing refutation of it on purely logical grounds. it juuuust might maybe true (however unlikely).
- arethuza 9y ago
  Permutation City? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permutation_City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permutation_City
- lawpoop 9y ago
  > "At the end of the day, even the mightiest thinkers and philosophers are made of flesh and bone". I like how words referring to abstract properties are used to dismiss the whole notion of abstract properties.
- sullyj3 9y ago
  > pure maths can create virtual worlds in some abstract math universe Sounds like Max Tegmark's Mathematical Universe Hypothesis. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_universe_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_universe_hypothes...)