6 ms·

Low-dose suramin temporarily improves symptoms of autism in small-scale study

83 points by jsnathan 9y ago

Darvict 9y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suramin https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suramin Things to note: - Administered solely by injection. - Not FDA approved.
- pavel_lishin 9y ago
  For those of you who read the side effects on the Wikipedia page, the article addresses 'em: > Unlike treatment for African sleeping sickness, which involves multiple, higher doses of suramin over a period of time and frequently results in a number of adverse side effects ranging from nausea and diarrhea to low blood pressure and kidney problems, researchers said the single, low dose of suramin used in the ASD trial produced no serious side effects beyond a passing skin rash.
  - derefr 9y ago
    > It is also common to experience various sensations in the skin, from crawling or tingling sensations, tenderness of palms and the soles, and numbness of hands, arm, legs or feet. That's an intriguing symptom, given that many inflammatory/autoimmune conditions cause peripheral neuropathy. I wonder if what is being described is the "unblocking" of peripheral nerves, causing a flood of signal-distorting noise as they re-join the nervous system.
SubiculumCode 9y ago
This might help some aspects of ASD. Hopefully. However I do not see how it will reverse the altered neural migration occurring early in development, for example, unless it is administered in infancy or earlier while in the womb..
valuearb 9y ago
Only 5 kids each for test and control populations.
- Houshalter 9y ago
  Small sample sizes aren't necessarily damning. E.g. if you gave 5 rabies patients a treatment and they were all instantly cured, that would be extremely strong evidence it worked. Because rabies is 99.999% fatal and the chances of 5 randomly chosen people being cured by coincidence is basically 0.
  - PhasmaFelis 9y ago
    In this case, for example: "We had four non-verbal children in the study, two 6-year-olds and two 14-year-olds. The six-year-old and the 14-year-old who received suramin said the first sentences of their lives about one week after the single suramin infusion. This did not happen in any of the children given the placebo." That seems promising and worth further study.
    - xenadu02 9y ago
      Indeed, the initial results are promising and worth further study with a larger sample size. We should be careful though... many results don't replicate in larger populations.
  - wu-ikkyu 9y ago
    Rabies is an objective pathology, so it is far more easily/accurately classified than subjective social conditions like autism.
    - igravious 9y ago
      Many idiotic statements (such as yours) would be prevented if English language speakers agreed to a global moratorium on the use of the words "objective" and "subjective" until such time that it could be verified that 99.999% of the population could use them in regular discourse in non-idiotic ways.
blennon 9y ago
Robert Naviaux is the real deal and his theory on the Cell Danger Response is fascinating [1]. In addition to ASD, he recently made a significant discovery in the characterization of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome as a metabolic illness [2]. [1] http://naviauxlab.ucsd.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/cell_danger_response.pdf http://naviauxlab.ucsd.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/cell_d... [2] http://naviauxlab.ucsd.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/PNAS-2016-Naviaux-1607571113.pdf http://naviauxlab.ucsd.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/PNAS-2...
- DiabloD3 9y ago
  Wait, how was Chronic Fatigue not a metabolic illness? I always assumed it was a mitochondrial disfunction from the way it was described in the literature.
  - lsiebert 9y ago
    Many people believed it to be a psychological disorder.
    - stult 9y ago
      Maybe it's my philosophical materialism, but I've never found that to be a satisfactory alternative explanation for anything. What can explain a psychological disorder other than underlying physical disease? Attributing a disease to psychological disorder is indistinguishable from saying "we don't understand what causes this."
      - naasking 9y ago
        > What can explain a psychological disorder other than underlying physical disease? Attributing a disease to psychological disorder is indistinguishable from saying "we don't understand what causes this." It might be ultimately reducible in this way, but the treatments for various psychological conditions are often very different than physiological problems.
lula68 9y ago
Back at it again with pretending autistic people don't become adults and can't communicate at all?
- PhasmaFelis 9y ago
  Some of us don't. The article mentions a "14-year-old who had not spoken a complete sentence in 12 years". As an autistic adult, it's really frustrating how high-functioning autistics and caretakers of low-functioning autistics constantly talk past each other and refuse to acknowledge that the other exists.
  - OscarTheGrinch 9y ago
    As one of the aformentioned caretakers I can attest that a certain narrowing of focus on one's own issues is part of the deal. I also have an autistic adult friend who is constantly dismayed by the focus on child autisim, so I can relate to what you are saying. The focus on children is likley caused by the medical siloing of patients into pediactric and adult. Also researchers may want to focus on harm reduction, ie by preventing or amelirating autisitic symptoms in children it is likley to also prevent the downstream effects to their nervous systems. But certainly if researchers want to get a better understanding of treatment efficacy, adults should also be included in trials. Our current diagnostic grouping of symptoms into an autisic spectrum is imperfect, I would be very supprised if autisim as we understand it today is caused by one thing. So if this research becomes a treatment it will likley only be benificial for a certain percentage.
donquichotte 9y ago
From TFA: "Suramin works by inhibiting the signaling function of adenosine triphosphate (ATP), a nucleotide or small molecule produced by cellular mitochondria and released from the cell as a danger signal. When CDR is activated, the effect of extracellular ATP is similar to a warning siren that never stops. Suramin inhibits the binding of ATP and similar molecules to key purinergic receptors, according to Naviaux." Are there any other substances out there that inhibit ATP signaling?
- Ntrails 9y ago
  I vaguely remember ATP from GCSE biology - and in my head it's related to energy production in cells... I'm curious whether that's merely poor memory or not
  - bitexploder 9y ago
    We could just Google this....but ATP adenosine triphosphate is the preferred energy source in the cellular energy cycle. A phosphate gets broken off when a cell uses it leaving ADP which is... Something something, I forget the rest. It's more expensive for the body to extract energy from ADP.
- epmaybe 9y ago
  If you said "purinergic signaling" then yes. I think the one used quite often is clopidogrel (plavix) that inhibits the ADP receptor on platelets to prevent them from aggregating. As far as I know, though, the drugs studied that inhibit purinergic signaling have only been approved for anti-platelet purposes.

83 points by jsnathan 9y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suramin https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suramin Things to note: - Administered solely by injection. - Not FDA approved.

pavel_lishin 9y ago
For those of you who read the side effects on the Wikipedia page, the article addresses 'em: > Unlike treatment for African sleeping sickness, which involves multiple, higher doses of suramin over a period of time and frequently results in a number of adverse side effects ranging from nausea and diarrhea to low blood pressure and kidney problems, researchers said the single, low dose of suramin used in the ASD trial produced no serious side effects beyond a passing skin rash.
- derefr 9y ago
  > It is also common to experience various sensations in the skin, from crawling or tingling sensations, tenderness of palms and the soles, and numbness of hands, arm, legs or feet. That's an intriguing symptom, given that many inflammatory/autoimmune conditions cause peripheral neuropathy. I wonder if what is being described is the "unblocking" of peripheral nerves, causing a flood of signal-distorting noise as they re-join the nervous system.

SubiculumCode 9y ago

This might help some aspects of ASD. Hopefully. However I do not see how it will reverse the altered neural migration occurring early in development, for example, unless it is administered in infancy or earlier while in the womb..

valuearb 9y ago

Only 5 kids each for test and control populations.

Houshalter 9y ago
Small sample sizes aren't necessarily damning. E.g. if you gave 5 rabies patients a treatment and they were all instantly cured, that would be extremely strong evidence it worked. Because rabies is 99.999% fatal and the chances of 5 randomly chosen people being cured by coincidence is basically 0.
- PhasmaFelis 9y ago
  In this case, for example: "We had four non-verbal children in the study, two 6-year-olds and two 14-year-olds. The six-year-old and the 14-year-old who received suramin said the first sentences of their lives about one week after the single suramin infusion. This did not happen in any of the children given the placebo." That seems promising and worth further study.
  - xenadu02 9y ago
    Indeed, the initial results are promising and worth further study with a larger sample size. We should be careful though... many results don't replicate in larger populations.
- wu-ikkyu 9y ago
  Rabies is an objective pathology, so it is far more easily/accurately classified than subjective social conditions like autism.
  - igravious 9y ago
    Many idiotic statements (such as yours) would be prevented if English language speakers agreed to a global moratorium on the use of the words "objective" and "subjective" until such time that it could be verified that 99.999% of the population could use them in regular discourse in non-idiotic ways.

blennon 9y ago

Robert Naviaux is the real deal and his theory on the Cell Danger Response is fascinating [1]. In addition to ASD, he recently made a significant discovery in the characterization of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome as a metabolic illness [2]. [1] http://naviauxlab.ucsd.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/cell_danger_response.pdf http://naviauxlab.ucsd.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/cell_d... [2] http://naviauxlab.ucsd.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/PNAS-2016-Naviaux-1607571113.pdf http://naviauxlab.ucsd.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/PNAS-2...

DiabloD3 9y ago
Wait, how was Chronic Fatigue not a metabolic illness? I always assumed it was a mitochondrial disfunction from the way it was described in the literature.
- lsiebert 9y ago
  Many people believed it to be a psychological disorder.
  - stult 9y ago
    Maybe it's my philosophical materialism, but I've never found that to be a satisfactory alternative explanation for anything. What can explain a psychological disorder other than underlying physical disease? Attributing a disease to psychological disorder is indistinguishable from saying "we don't understand what causes this."
    - naasking 9y ago
      > What can explain a psychological disorder other than underlying physical disease? Attributing a disease to psychological disorder is indistinguishable from saying "we don't understand what causes this." It might be ultimately reducible in this way, but the treatments for various psychological conditions are often very different than physiological problems.

lula68 9y ago

Back at it again with pretending autistic people don't become adults and can't communicate at all?

PhasmaFelis 9y ago
Some of us don't. The article mentions a "14-year-old who had not spoken a complete sentence in 12 years". As an autistic adult, it's really frustrating how high-functioning autistics and caretakers of low-functioning autistics constantly talk past each other and refuse to acknowledge that the other exists.
- OscarTheGrinch 9y ago
  As one of the aformentioned caretakers I can attest that a certain narrowing of focus on one's own issues is part of the deal. I also have an autistic adult friend who is constantly dismayed by the focus on child autisim, so I can relate to what you are saying. The focus on children is likley caused by the medical siloing of patients into pediactric and adult. Also researchers may want to focus on harm reduction, ie by preventing or amelirating autisitic symptoms in children it is likley to also prevent the downstream effects to their nervous systems. But certainly if researchers want to get a better understanding of treatment efficacy, adults should also be included in trials. Our current diagnostic grouping of symptoms into an autisic spectrum is imperfect, I would be very supprised if autisim as we understand it today is caused by one thing. So if this research becomes a treatment it will likley only be benificial for a certain percentage.

donquichotte 9y ago

From TFA: "Suramin works by inhibiting the signaling function of adenosine triphosphate (ATP), a nucleotide or small molecule produced by cellular mitochondria and released from the cell as a danger signal. When CDR is activated, the effect of extracellular ATP is similar to a warning siren that never stops. Suramin inhibits the binding of ATP and similar molecules to key purinergic receptors, according to Naviaux." Are there any other substances out there that inhibit ATP signaling?

Ntrails 9y ago
I vaguely remember ATP from GCSE biology - and in my head it's related to energy production in cells... I'm curious whether that's merely poor memory or not
- bitexploder 9y ago
  We could just Google this....but ATP adenosine triphosphate is the preferred energy source in the cellular energy cycle. A phosphate gets broken off when a cell uses it leaving ADP which is... Something something, I forget the rest. It's more expensive for the body to extract energy from ADP.
epmaybe 9y ago
If you said "purinergic signaling" then yes. I think the one used quite often is clopidogrel (plavix) that inhibits the ADP receptor on platelets to prevent them from aggregating. As far as I know, though, the drugs studied that inhibit purinergic signaling have only been approved for anti-platelet purposes.