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First thing is, people worried about terrorism aren't really worried about terrorism as it is now. They're really worried about what terrorism and ethnic confli

First thing is, people worried about terrorism aren't really worried about terrorism as it is now. They're really worried about what terrorism and ethnic conflict will be like in a few decades when, for example, Muslims are majority in some European countries. Muslim majorities are predicted in several major European countries, using basic conservative demographic projections, this century. How will that be to live in? For a prototype of that, you can look to Lebanon, or how Christians have been faring in Egypt in recent decades. Here you have to make the distinction between the steady problem and the unlimited-growth problem. The steady problem is "homegrown" terrorism. While there is always some level of terrorism coming from all groups, that should be addressed with the usual deradicalization and politics programs. Those approaches solved the issue with, for example, IRA terrorism. Which is a good thing, because we have to live with our own people. The real issue is the one that will grow without limit due to ongoing demographic replacement in the West by Muslims. That's what people are worried about, because people understand that unlike homegrown terrorism, the Islamic terrorism problem can become infinitely bad, and you can end up like the Christians in Egypt. No magical historical force prevents French or Germans or British from ending up living under such deadly tyranny. Sadly, the only real way to stop this is to cease Muslim immigration until some of these data [1] start looking a lot more promising (which will take a century at least). There's certainly no shortage of people wanting to move West from places like India and China, so I see no problem with choosing immigrants who will create better outcomes (and we do that anyway). If we're willing to discriminate on age and education, we can discriminate on religion - especially when a religion's core beliefs, as interpreted in all its mainstream schools of thought, explicitly opposes the basic egalatarian democratic values of our society. [1] http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/05/26/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/05/26/muslims-and-...

rorykoehler 9y ago
What does a Muslim majority population have to do with terrorism? I've lived in many Muslim majority neighbourhoods and the closest I've gotten to terrorism is watching it on the news. In fact there was far more terrorism (daily almost) on the news as i was growing up in Ireland. 'Christians' blowing the shit out of each other. Practically all of the recent Muslim immigrants in Europe are running away from terrorists not becoming them. Fear of a Muslim majority is completely irrational.
- duncan_bayne 9y ago
  It's not. Muslim majority countries worldwide have an appalling human rights record. Many (most?) have criminal punishment for blasphemy, apostasy and homosexuality. Capital punishment for any of the above is common, and legal in many majority-Muslim states. There are clear examples of social regression to point to as well. Both Iran and Turkey used to be far more secular and liberal. True, it's not terrorism. The oppression is usually legal, and at the behest of the majority of the population. But it's reasonable to fear it, especially if you happen to be kuffar, female, or gay.
  - rorykoehler 9y ago
    Europe is not going to introduce Sharia law or anything remotely similar. Pretty sure the gay Muslims I met in Berlin moved there to escape persecution, not mete it out.
    - duncan_bayne 9y ago
      Indeed - that's been my experience too. Literally every Muslim immigrant I've known has been fleeing the crazy. But you're ignoring my point - almost every majority Muslim country has a rights-violating Sharia based Government. So no. Europe certainly won't enact Sharia law, provided their Muslim population remains a minority.
saiya-jin 9y ago
Gosh, you are wrong on so many things, but you reflect popular opinions of many common folks out there who probably just watch tv news. Look, it ain't that hard, I am confident you can follow. You want to curb terrorism? Stop US doing their patriotic freedom crap in muslim countries where they have 0 mandate to kill thousands of civilians every year, for decades, for whatever pathetic reasons they tell you. They piss the shit out of generations of people whose close families were killed in most horrible ways. This is a very sad reality of tens of millions in huge parts of middle east, plus Afghanistan and Pakistan. If you would see your parents/brother/kids killed by some trigger-happy scared shitless 18-year old american kid on some security checkpoint, what would you do? I know I would most probably try to avenge them somehow, anyhow, and this mentality is very common among males all around the world (to be fair, some women have it too, ie in Chechnya). There are many examples of muslims and christians (or other mixes of religions) living peacefully for millenia in same places next to each other. Usually only when some political asshole tries hard to escalate the situation for his own profit (ie targeted kiling of 'other' group), things go bad. But then again we westerners are perfectly capable of killing each other without some religious pretext in amazingly high amounts and hating each other for some tiny differences. The last thing I want to say to this - once you meet people of other religions, you realize how similar we are. No, in fact we are fucking same. So stop this us-vs-them mentality, it's just a mental construct in your head. Howgh.
k-mcgrady 9y ago
Muslims/Islam != terrorism. Do you know many muslims? I happen to live in a muslim majority area of a major European city. No problems. They're people just like me and you and like most religious people they keep their views to themselves and get on with their lives. Oh and the area I live in has a muslim politician in charge (and their closest competitor is a Imam) - both have very liberal policies. Your reasoning seems to be: muslim majority == now they have the power to implement strict religious laws via the democratic process. Well that's absolute nonsense when it's only a tiny minority of them that have these extremist views. I could very easily look at some fundamentalist Christian groups and come to the same conclusions you have but I know that not all Christians believe the crazy crap that some fundamentalists do. I'm actually terrified reading your comment because you've taken the uneducated bullshit arguments given by people and political parties on the verge of racism/sectarianism and polished it to look like it's intellectual and backed by evidence when that's clearly not the case.
- dracht 9y ago
  I live in a European city/country with a lot of muslims and they are nothing but a problem - generally speaking (this one cool muslim guy you know is not a rebuttal), they refuse to assimilate, are an enormous burden on the welfare state and are overrepresented in crime. Demanding similar anecdotes from the OP however is an appeal to authority. You only have to take off your rose tinted blinders and look at the state of affairs in muslim majority countries to see what happens when they are significant in numbers. Even in a "moderate" muslim country like Indonesia gays get arrested. Do you think these societies are a result of their geographic location or the culture/religion? What do you think happens if you only change the location of the people and they keep their culture/religion? It's far from a "tiny minority" that holds extremist views - there are plenty of polls (check out those from Pew Research Center) that attest to that. You are gravely mistaken if you believe all religions are the same and equally compatible with western ideals.

rorykoehler 9y ago

What does a Muslim majority population have to do with terrorism? I've lived in many Muslim majority neighbourhoods and the closest I've gotten to terrorism is watching it on the news. In fact there was far more terrorism (daily almost) on the news as i was growing up in Ireland. 'Christians' blowing the shit out of each other. Practically all of the recent Muslim immigrants in Europe are running away from terrorists not becoming them. Fear of a Muslim majority is completely irrational.

duncan_bayne 9y ago
It's not. Muslim majority countries worldwide have an appalling human rights record. Many (most?) have criminal punishment for blasphemy, apostasy and homosexuality. Capital punishment for any of the above is common, and legal in many majority-Muslim states. There are clear examples of social regression to point to as well. Both Iran and Turkey used to be far more secular and liberal. True, it's not terrorism. The oppression is usually legal, and at the behest of the majority of the population. But it's reasonable to fear it, especially if you happen to be kuffar, female, or gay.
- rorykoehler 9y ago
  Europe is not going to introduce Sharia law or anything remotely similar. Pretty sure the gay Muslims I met in Berlin moved there to escape persecution, not mete it out.
  - duncan_bayne 9y ago
    Indeed - that's been my experience too. Literally every Muslim immigrant I've known has been fleeing the crazy. But you're ignoring my point - almost every majority Muslim country has a rights-violating Sharia based Government. So no. Europe certainly won't enact Sharia law, provided their Muslim population remains a minority.

saiya-jin 9y ago

Gosh, you are wrong on so many things, but you reflect popular opinions of many common folks out there who probably just watch tv news. Look, it ain't that hard, I am confident you can follow. You want to curb terrorism? Stop US doing their patriotic freedom crap in muslim countries where they have 0 mandate to kill thousands of civilians every year, for decades, for whatever pathetic reasons they tell you. They piss the shit out of generations of people whose close families were killed in most horrible ways. This is a very sad reality of tens of millions in huge parts of middle east, plus Afghanistan and Pakistan. If you would see your parents/brother/kids killed by some trigger-happy scared shitless 18-year old american kid on some security checkpoint, what would you do? I know I would most probably try to avenge them somehow, anyhow, and this mentality is very common among males all around the world (to be fair, some women have it too, ie in Chechnya). There are many examples of muslims and christians (or other mixes of religions) living peacefully for millenia in same places next to each other. Usually only when some political asshole tries hard to escalate the situation for his own profit (ie targeted kiling of 'other' group), things go bad. But then again we westerners are perfectly capable of killing each other without some religious pretext in amazingly high amounts and hating each other for some tiny differences. The last thing I want to say to this - once you meet people of other religions, you realize how similar we are. No, in fact we are fucking same. So stop this us-vs-them mentality, it's just a mental construct in your head. Howgh.

k-mcgrady 9y ago

Muslims/Islam != terrorism. Do you know many muslims? I happen to live in a muslim majority area of a major European city. No problems. They're people just like me and you and like most religious people they keep their views to themselves and get on with their lives. Oh and the area I live in has a muslim politician in charge (and their closest competitor is a Imam) - both have very liberal policies. Your reasoning seems to be: muslim majority == now they have the power to implement strict religious laws via the democratic process. Well that's absolute nonsense when it's only a tiny minority of them that have these extremist views. I could very easily look at some fundamentalist Christian groups and come to the same conclusions you have but I know that not all Christians believe the crazy crap that some fundamentalists do. I'm actually terrified reading your comment because you've taken the uneducated bullshit arguments given by people and political parties on the verge of racism/sectarianism and polished it to look like it's intellectual and backed by evidence when that's clearly not the case.

dracht 9y ago
I live in a European city/country with a lot of muslims and they are nothing but a problem - generally speaking (this one cool muslim guy you know is not a rebuttal), they refuse to assimilate, are an enormous burden on the welfare state and are overrepresented in crime. Demanding similar anecdotes from the OP however is an appeal to authority. You only have to take off your rose tinted blinders and look at the state of affairs in muslim majority countries to see what happens when they are significant in numbers. Even in a "moderate" muslim country like Indonesia gays get arrested. Do you think these societies are a result of their geographic location or the culture/religion? What do you think happens if you only change the location of the people and they keep their culture/religion? It's far from a "tiny minority" that holds extremist views - there are plenty of polls (check out those from Pew Research Center) that attest to that. You are gravely mistaken if you believe all religions are the same and equally compatible with western ideals.