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The really interesting question for me is why the government would award new contracts to Booz Allen after the Snowden leaks. (While I applaud Snowden, I deplo

The really interesting question for me is why the government would award new contracts to Booz Allen after the Snowden leaks. (While I applaud Snowden, I deplore the government's inability to prevent his leaks.) Booz Allen demonstrated that they were unable to enforce appropriate practices for handling classified data. So what's the rationale for ever awarding them another contract? What capabilities do they have that the government doesn't have or can't develop?

jbooth 9y ago
The question is more, "what capabilities do they have that other companies don't", and I suspect the answer is "extreme proficiency at the federal RFP process".
- uncoder0 9y ago
  Your answer would be correct, at least in my experience... the amount of times my DARPA RFP's have been shot down by some minor box that didn't get ticked in the RFP process is a bit absurd. We even had a dedicated contract officer who used to work there to help with the process.
  - tssva 9y ago
    How would you have them decide who is allowed to deviate from the documented RFP process and by how much? Also not checking all the boxes during the RFP process sends a signal about your ability to do so once the work is awarded.
    - uncoder0 9y ago
      In the specific cases I'm talking about the 'ticking all the boxes' was rather subjective and not adequately explained in the RFP.
    - BearGoesChirp 9y ago
      >Also not checking all the boxes during the RFP process sends a signal about your ability to do so once the work is awarded. A false signal that people would be wise to ignore. There are a multitude of examples showing that companies that learn how to check all the right RFP boxes pay no mind to checking any of the 'do a good job and product a good product' boxes. It shows they are good at checking only the boxes that make them money, and the current process is that doing a good job is not a box one's pay depends upon. Is there any similar evidence that people who fail to check all the RFP boxes also fail to check the "do a good job and deliver a good product" boxes?
- ipunchghosts 9y ago
  This! I interviewed at Booz in 2004. I told them i was interested in going to grad school and that i heard they work their new hires to death. I told them that id rather work myself to death in grad school where i can get a phd rather than at Booz. They said none of the folks in their group work more than 40 hours so I agreed to come to for an interview. So I arrive at my interview all suited up. I was interviewed in a lunch room by a woman first. She was really nice. I asked her how many hours she works a week and she said around 60 and that everyone does. I was a bit taken back because this is the opposite of what the hiring manager had said. Interviewer 2 comes in and I ask the same question during the course of the meeting and I get the same answer: he works 60 hours a week and so does everyone else but everyone really loves their work. I'm angry now because I had to drive 4 hours to get to this interview and it essentially wasted a whole day. I literally got up in the middle of the interview and shook the guys hand and said, sorry, but i dont think this will work for me. The hiring manager must of saw that something was up and came and and asked what was going on. I politely said he lied to me about the position and mentioned the hours thing and he accused me of not being a team player. I told him frankly, you wasted my time and said goodbye. He threatened to not pay my hotel and per diem as i walked out. I never even acknowledged him and just kept going. I walked out past security on the way out and dropped off my badge, I didnt even sign up and no one even bothered to stop me. They ended up paying for everything and there were no consequences. I ended up getting a well paying job at raytheon the following day. I worked there for 5 years and never worked a day over 8 hours AND they paid for my graduate work (they offered). A friend mentioned it best, "When you Booz, you lose."
  - sevensor 9y ago
    > He threatened to not pay my hotel and per diem as i walked out Wow. Not only is that deeply unprofessional, I can't even imagine what he hoped to gain by that.
  - basseq 9y ago
    Similar Booz story: I took an interview with them while with a competitor. I had no real interest in the firm, but was interested in what they had to say and offer for competitive intel. Ended up having a great interview with the guy who ran one of their larger accounts, who happened to be one of my clients at the time. Got a phone call from their recruiter that evening who was excited to offer me a position at a 30% pay cut and a more junior title. She didn't understand my confusion, tried to convince me that "our managers are basically partners at all the other firms", and eventually got the picture when I started laughing. I think it was also Booz who tried to get me to tell them confidential compensation information because, quote, "C'mon, I'm not going to tell anyone."
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  This is true of firms getting government contracts in general, especially true of federal contracts, and, from everything I've heard (especially from people who've worked on defense contracting from either side) epically true of defense contracting. Working the contracting system is a completely different competency than doing the work that is contracted for, and the people that get contracts are the ones specialized in getting contracts. They probably have some competence in the actual work, but they often aren't competing with the best in the field for the work, because the best in the field for the work often have no or less competence in the relevant area ofmgovernment contracting.
- FooHentai 9y ago
  That, plus the same motte-and-bailey PR that in fairness most companies employ: Terrible bad thing that happened? It was that one individual's actions and they've of course been let go! (see: VW emissions scandal, but this plays out in B2B privately all the time). Good outcomes due to individual heroics? Our company has an established history of delivery! (ignore the fact that those folks quit years ago). The Ship of Theseus sails ever onwards ;)
pg_is_a_butt 9y ago
> What capabilities do they have that the government doesn't have or can't develop? The ability to leak government information while absorbing all of the liability away from the government. you're all idiots.
linkregister 9y ago
How would Booz Allen Hamilton enforce security policy that is managed by the government client by one of its consultants? Snowden was a consultant working on the client site. Booz Allen Hamilton's contract scope didn't include security policy. The only realistic way BAH could have enforced this policy is by having a manager follow each consultant around. This position would be added to the contract and increase the cost. > What capabilities do they have that the government doesn't have or can't develop? Absolutely nothing; permanent hires are deeply unpalatable by Congress, yet they encourage using contractors at higher cost to the government to perform the same work. One of the major pillars of the President's election platform was reducing the number of government employees. One of his first actions in office was to implement a hiring freeze for federal employees.
- sevensor 9y ago
  Good point about headcount. So the federal government hires contractors to handle classified data even though doing so makes it structurally impossible to secure classified data. And they do so over and over again because they're caught between headcount restrictions and mission requirements. And because, as noted elsewhere in the thread, Booz is a massive proposal-writing machine, they're well positioned to receive these contracts.
  - munin 9y ago
    > So the federal government hires contractors to handle classified data even though doing so makes it structurally impossible to secure classified data. Why? What's the difference between a contract employee and a government employee at this level? They all sign literally the same NDA, the same laws apply to both, the same polices apply to both. They both go through the same security screening process and they both pass the same (roughly) technical competency bar to do their jobs. You probably see more contractor fuckups just because there are more contractors. There are also many government staff fuckups (sure, Snowden was a contractor but every big spy prior was a civillian or military).
  - nova22033 9y ago
    >hires contractors to handle classified data even though doing so makes it structurally impossible to secure classified data. Why? Ames and Hanssen were government employees.

jbooth 9y ago

The question is more, "what capabilities do they have that other companies don't", and I suspect the answer is "extreme proficiency at the federal RFP process".

uncoder0 9y ago
Your answer would be correct, at least in my experience... the amount of times my DARPA RFP's have been shot down by some minor box that didn't get ticked in the RFP process is a bit absurd. We even had a dedicated contract officer who used to work there to help with the process.
- tssva 9y ago
  How would you have them decide who is allowed to deviate from the documented RFP process and by how much? Also not checking all the boxes during the RFP process sends a signal about your ability to do so once the work is awarded.
  - uncoder0 9y ago
    In the specific cases I'm talking about the 'ticking all the boxes' was rather subjective and not adequately explained in the RFP.
  - BearGoesChirp 9y ago
    >Also not checking all the boxes during the RFP process sends a signal about your ability to do so once the work is awarded. A false signal that people would be wise to ignore. There are a multitude of examples showing that companies that learn how to check all the right RFP boxes pay no mind to checking any of the 'do a good job and product a good product' boxes. It shows they are good at checking only the boxes that make them money, and the current process is that doing a good job is not a box one's pay depends upon. Is there any similar evidence that people who fail to check all the RFP boxes also fail to check the "do a good job and deliver a good product" boxes?
ipunchghosts 9y ago
This! I interviewed at Booz in 2004. I told them i was interested in going to grad school and that i heard they work their new hires to death. I told them that id rather work myself to death in grad school where i can get a phd rather than at Booz. They said none of the folks in their group work more than 40 hours so I agreed to come to for an interview. So I arrive at my interview all suited up. I was interviewed in a lunch room by a woman first. She was really nice. I asked her how many hours she works a week and she said around 60 and that everyone does. I was a bit taken back because this is the opposite of what the hiring manager had said. Interviewer 2 comes in and I ask the same question during the course of the meeting and I get the same answer: he works 60 hours a week and so does everyone else but everyone really loves their work. I'm angry now because I had to drive 4 hours to get to this interview and it essentially wasted a whole day. I literally got up in the middle of the interview and shook the guys hand and said, sorry, but i dont think this will work for me. The hiring manager must of saw that something was up and came and and asked what was going on. I politely said he lied to me about the position and mentioned the hours thing and he accused me of not being a team player. I told him frankly, you wasted my time and said goodbye. He threatened to not pay my hotel and per diem as i walked out. I never even acknowledged him and just kept going. I walked out past security on the way out and dropped off my badge, I didnt even sign up and no one even bothered to stop me. They ended up paying for everything and there were no consequences. I ended up getting a well paying job at raytheon the following day. I worked there for 5 years and never worked a day over 8 hours AND they paid for my graduate work (they offered). A friend mentioned it best, "When you Booz, you lose."
- sevensor 9y ago
  > He threatened to not pay my hotel and per diem as i walked out Wow. Not only is that deeply unprofessional, I can't even imagine what he hoped to gain by that.
- basseq 9y ago
  Similar Booz story: I took an interview with them while with a competitor. I had no real interest in the firm, but was interested in what they had to say and offer for competitive intel. Ended up having a great interview with the guy who ran one of their larger accounts, who happened to be one of my clients at the time. Got a phone call from their recruiter that evening who was excited to offer me a position at a 30% pay cut and a more junior title. She didn't understand my confusion, tried to convince me that "our managers are basically partners at all the other firms", and eventually got the picture when I started laughing. I think it was also Booz who tried to get me to tell them confidential compensation information because, quote, "C'mon, I'm not going to tell anyone."
dragonwriter 9y ago
This is true of firms getting government contracts in general, especially true of federal contracts, and, from everything I've heard (especially from people who've worked on defense contracting from either side) epically true of defense contracting. Working the contracting system is a completely different competency than doing the work that is contracted for, and the people that get contracts are the ones specialized in getting contracts. They probably have some competence in the actual work, but they often aren't competing with the best in the field for the work, because the best in the field for the work often have no or less competence in the relevant area ofmgovernment contracting.
FooHentai 9y ago
That, plus the same motte-and-bailey PR that in fairness most companies employ: Terrible bad thing that happened? It was that one individual's actions and they've of course been let go! (see: VW emissions scandal, but this plays out in B2B privately all the time). Good outcomes due to individual heroics? Our company has an established history of delivery! (ignore the fact that those folks quit years ago). The Ship of Theseus sails ever onwards ;)

pg_is_a_butt 9y ago

> What capabilities do they have that the government doesn't have or can't develop? The ability to leak government information while absorbing all of the liability away from the government. you're all idiots.

linkregister 9y ago

How would Booz Allen Hamilton enforce security policy that is managed by the government client by one of its consultants? Snowden was a consultant working on the client site. Booz Allen Hamilton's contract scope didn't include security policy. The only realistic way BAH could have enforced this policy is by having a manager follow each consultant around. This position would be added to the contract and increase the cost. > What capabilities do they have that the government doesn't have or can't develop? Absolutely nothing; permanent hires are deeply unpalatable by Congress, yet they encourage using contractors at higher cost to the government to perform the same work. One of the major pillars of the President's election platform was reducing the number of government employees. One of his first actions in office was to implement a hiring freeze for federal employees.

sevensor 9y ago
Good point about headcount. So the federal government hires contractors to handle classified data even though doing so makes it structurally impossible to secure classified data. And they do so over and over again because they're caught between headcount restrictions and mission requirements. And because, as noted elsewhere in the thread, Booz is a massive proposal-writing machine, they're well positioned to receive these contracts.
- munin 9y ago
  > So the federal government hires contractors to handle classified data even though doing so makes it structurally impossible to secure classified data. Why? What's the difference between a contract employee and a government employee at this level? They all sign literally the same NDA, the same laws apply to both, the same polices apply to both. They both go through the same security screening process and they both pass the same (roughly) technical competency bar to do their jobs. You probably see more contractor fuckups just because there are more contractors. There are also many government staff fuckups (sure, Snowden was a contractor but every big spy prior was a civillian or military).
- nova22033 9y ago
  >hires contractors to handle classified data even though doing so makes it structurally impossible to secure classified data. Why? Ames and Hanssen were government employees.