6 ms·

I thought about this when I visited the Hoover Dam. The audacity of the thing and sheer impossibility of doing anything remotely like it in today's America mak

I thought about this when I visited the Hoover Dam. The audacity of the thing and sheer impossibility of doing anything remotely like it in today's America makes it seem like a relic from an ancient civilization. It felt like visiting the pyramids in Egypt.

ghaff 9y ago
Dams specifically are... complicated. There are a lot of reasons why dams are more likely to be torn down these days than built. Some are necessary for flood control but dams often have very significant negative environmental effects. It's also hard to imagine building the interstate highway system today but, in general, a greater concern about the environmental impact of infrastructure projects isn't really a bad thing.
- bluGill 9y ago
  They are not building many interstates, but existing ones are being expanded around cities. They are also upgrading a lot of little two lane country roads to freeways - except for the name they are interstates.
  - ghaff 9y ago
    Yes. But by and large those don't involve new right of ways. The interstate highway system involved a huge amount of land taking by eminent domain. The legal challenges today would be immense. In part because the country is just more built up but it's also generally harder for the government to just buy up land because they're the government, to say nothing of environmental etc. challenges.
- TulliusCicero 9y ago
  > It's also hard to imagine building the interstate highway system today but, in general, a greater concern about the environmental impact of infrastructure projects isn't really a bad thing. Yes, but Japan and Western Europe surely care as much about the environment as the US does, don't they? Plus a lot of the times you have a incredibly amount of money spent on environmental review for things like, a housing complex in the middle of SF being torn down to make way for a taller housing complex. That's not going to impact "the environment" as the term is usually used. It's not dropping new development in a forest or building a dam.
pilom 9y ago
#1 reason we wouldn't do things like that today: 112-154 people died during construction (number depends on if you believe that carbon monoxide poisioning during construction was purposely mis-diagnosed in order for the company to skip on paying death benefits).
- ori_b 9y ago
  You say that as though dams can't be built without killing people. They aren't gifts bestowed by the gods upon the completion of sufficient human sacrifice. Deaths and injuries are minimal with construction equipment and safety techniques.
  - pilom 9y ago
    The Hoover Dam was build for about $800 million inflation adjusted. I'm 100% certain that you couldn't build that structure today for that much without killing people.
    - sfifs 9y ago
      So are you saying Japan builds infra cheaper than US by killing people?
      - flubert 9y ago
        What would be a good way to compare these types of numbers? http://www.jisha.or.jp/english/statistics/accidents2010.html#Fig1 http://www.jisha.or.jp/english/statistics/accidents2010.html... https://www.osha.gov/oshstats/commonstats.html https://www.osha.gov/oshstats/commonstats.html
    - revelation 9y ago
      Spending $800 million on tons of tiny general construction projects will kill just as many people.
- noonespecial 9y ago
  This is a huge reason the Apollo program succeeded as well. Everyone accepted the fact that the astronauts might not be coming back.
jboggan 9y ago
Hypothesis: nicotine is a nootropic [0] good for say, 6 IQ points on average (Danish study I saw referenced, not linking unless I can find the original paper). The Hoover Dam and many other great infrastructure projects were created in the earlier 20th century when smoking was pervasive. Perhaps we were somewhat smarter in aggregate back then and that's why we can't engineer infrastructure at the same level anymore. 0 - https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/will-a-nicotine-patch-make-you-smarter-excerpt/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/will-a-nicotine-p...
- vondur 9y ago
  I don't believe we are lacking of people not smart enough to construct a dam. It's simply come down to litigation that prevents large scale infrastructure from being constructed. It's very difficult to build infrastructure in California due to lawsuits from environmental groups for example.
- mythrwy 9y ago
  When they built the Hover Dam people lived in tents. In the desert. Without air conditioning. And, there was during the height of construction, (from memory so forgive inexactness) one day off a year. Christmas Day. And that was optional. And people were happy to be working because they were in many cases about half starved. So they put up with it. Contrast that with now. Medium articles about toxic passive aggressive workplaces from people making $120K/year and who spend a lot of that screwing around and in meetings. In air conditioned offices. And that's just the start! Not suggesting we return to the bad old days, but that is one of the major differences. Nicotine is an extremely minor one.
- gwern 9y ago
  There aren't 6 point differences between France, China, Japan, and the USA. It's more like 2 points. And if 2, or 6 points could double construction costs, then in the poorest countries like Africa everything would have to cost something like 100x more, which is definitely not the case.
  - kmicklas 9y ago
madengr 9y ago
The development of the atomic bomb also amazes me. I get a kick out of this video setting up the first test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7CmcsOubZ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7CmcsOubZ8 No hard-hats No shirts Free climbing tower with no safety lines Cigarette hanging from mouth No way they could ever pull this off today. No way the Apollo program could be pulled off either.
- killjoywashere 9y ago
  SpaceX is well on their way to re-inventing the Apollo program. Those rockets are huge compared to a Falcon Heavy, and they would literally need a much larger facility to build them, but they'll do it. And they'll do it with hard hats, shirts, safety lines, and in a smoke free environment.
  - avar 9y ago
    A fair comparison is not what SpaceX is doing today, but what SpaceX could be doing with today's technology with multi-percentage points of US GDP as their funding. In that context it's not at all impressive that they're just getting past beating 60s technology, and not even in all cases. Yes they've got reusability, but there's still nothing as big as the Saturn V. Edit: To clarify, I think SpaceX is very impressive, but I think we as a species are doing proportionally less impressive things than in the 20th century given the level of technology we have. It's not their fault we aren't spending multi-percentage points of GDP on similarly impressive projects.
- drewg123 9y ago
  That reminds me a lot of watching my Dad and my uncles work on my grandfather's farm when we would visit there when I was a kid in the mid 70s. Lots of heavy equipment, no shirts, climbing w/o safety lines, cigarettes in everybody's mouth. Just an attitude of "get it done" It is no wonder "farmer" is one of the most dangerous occupations in the US. They're the last to be impacted by health and safety regulations.
ridgeguy 9y ago
My father worked on that dam. One of my favorite photos looks down on him running a small horizontal drill rig into a cliff while suspended on a rope several hundred feet above the river. Just a rope knotted around his waist, no harness. Definitely would not pass today's construction safety regulations. I agree about the relic-feeling. I guess there were giants in those days.
int_19h 9y ago
I get the same feeling even for smaller scale projects. I was looking at the I-90 at Snoqualmie Pass from below - it's effectively a very long bridge over the area there - and wondering whether I will see such infrastructure projects in my lifetime. For the curious, here are some photos of that place: https://pemco.com/blog/Lists/Photos/denny_creek_viaduct_captured_from_tv.jpg https://pemco.com/blog/Lists/Photos/denny_creek_viaduct_capt... http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/36708233.jpg http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/36708233.jpg https://scottsk.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/img_1674.jpg https://scottsk.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/img_1674.jpg
- dx034 9y ago
  Maybe not in the US but certainly in other countries. HK currently demonstrates that with their bridge to Macau and France's Millau Viaduct is at least as impressive as the Snoqualmie Pass [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millau_Viaduct https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millau_Viaduct
  - int_19h 9y ago
    Yep, I'm specifically thinking of US. Europeans still get major infrastructure work done.

ghaff 9y ago

Dams specifically are... complicated. There are a lot of reasons why dams are more likely to be torn down these days than built. Some are necessary for flood control but dams often have very significant negative environmental effects. It's also hard to imagine building the interstate highway system today but, in general, a greater concern about the environmental impact of infrastructure projects isn't really a bad thing.

bluGill 9y ago
They are not building many interstates, but existing ones are being expanded around cities. They are also upgrading a lot of little two lane country roads to freeways - except for the name they are interstates.
- ghaff 9y ago
  Yes. But by and large those don't involve new right of ways. The interstate highway system involved a huge amount of land taking by eminent domain. The legal challenges today would be immense. In part because the country is just more built up but it's also generally harder for the government to just buy up land because they're the government, to say nothing of environmental etc. challenges.
TulliusCicero 9y ago
> It's also hard to imagine building the interstate highway system today but, in general, a greater concern about the environmental impact of infrastructure projects isn't really a bad thing. Yes, but Japan and Western Europe surely care as much about the environment as the US does, don't they? Plus a lot of the times you have a incredibly amount of money spent on environmental review for things like, a housing complex in the middle of SF being torn down to make way for a taller housing complex. That's not going to impact "the environment" as the term is usually used. It's not dropping new development in a forest or building a dam.

pilom 9y ago

#1 reason we wouldn't do things like that today: 112-154 people died during construction (number depends on if you believe that carbon monoxide poisioning during construction was purposely mis-diagnosed in order for the company to skip on paying death benefits).

ori_b 9y ago
You say that as though dams can't be built without killing people. They aren't gifts bestowed by the gods upon the completion of sufficient human sacrifice. Deaths and injuries are minimal with construction equipment and safety techniques.
- pilom 9y ago
  The Hoover Dam was build for about $800 million inflation adjusted. I'm 100% certain that you couldn't build that structure today for that much without killing people.
  - sfifs 9y ago
    So are you saying Japan builds infra cheaper than US by killing people?
    - flubert 9y ago
      What would be a good way to compare these types of numbers? http://www.jisha.or.jp/english/statistics/accidents2010.html#Fig1 http://www.jisha.or.jp/english/statistics/accidents2010.html... https://www.osha.gov/oshstats/commonstats.html https://www.osha.gov/oshstats/commonstats.html
  - revelation 9y ago
    Spending $800 million on tons of tiny general construction projects will kill just as many people.
noonespecial 9y ago
This is a huge reason the Apollo program succeeded as well. Everyone accepted the fact that the astronauts might not be coming back.

jboggan 9y ago

Hypothesis: nicotine is a nootropic [0] good for say, 6 IQ points on average (Danish study I saw referenced, not linking unless I can find the original paper). The Hoover Dam and many other great infrastructure projects were created in the earlier 20th century when smoking was pervasive. Perhaps we were somewhat smarter in aggregate back then and that's why we can't engineer infrastructure at the same level anymore. 0 - https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/will-a-nicotine-patch-make-you-smarter-excerpt/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/will-a-nicotine-p...

vondur 9y ago
I don't believe we are lacking of people not smart enough to construct a dam. It's simply come down to litigation that prevents large scale infrastructure from being constructed. It's very difficult to build infrastructure in California due to lawsuits from environmental groups for example.
mythrwy 9y ago
When they built the Hover Dam people lived in tents. In the desert. Without air conditioning. And, there was during the height of construction, (from memory so forgive inexactness) one day off a year. Christmas Day. And that was optional. And people were happy to be working because they were in many cases about half starved. So they put up with it. Contrast that with now. Medium articles about toxic passive aggressive workplaces from people making $120K/year and who spend a lot of that screwing around and in meetings. In air conditioned offices. And that's just the start! Not suggesting we return to the bad old days, but that is one of the major differences. Nicotine is an extremely minor one.
gwern 9y ago
There aren't 6 point differences between France, China, Japan, and the USA. It's more like 2 points. And if 2, or 6 points could double construction costs, then in the poorest countries like Africa everything would have to cost something like 100x more, which is definitely not the case.
- kmicklas 9y ago

madengr 9y ago

The development of the atomic bomb also amazes me. I get a kick out of this video setting up the first test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7CmcsOubZ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7CmcsOubZ8 No hard-hats No shirts Free climbing tower with no safety lines Cigarette hanging from mouth No way they could ever pull this off today. No way the Apollo program could be pulled off either.

killjoywashere 9y ago
SpaceX is well on their way to re-inventing the Apollo program. Those rockets are huge compared to a Falcon Heavy, and they would literally need a much larger facility to build them, but they'll do it. And they'll do it with hard hats, shirts, safety lines, and in a smoke free environment.
- avar 9y ago
  A fair comparison is not what SpaceX is doing today, but what SpaceX could be doing with today's technology with multi-percentage points of US GDP as their funding. In that context it's not at all impressive that they're just getting past beating 60s technology, and not even in all cases. Yes they've got reusability, but there's still nothing as big as the Saturn V. Edit: To clarify, I think SpaceX is very impressive, but I think we as a species are doing proportionally less impressive things than in the 20th century given the level of technology we have. It's not their fault we aren't spending multi-percentage points of GDP on similarly impressive projects.
drewg123 9y ago
That reminds me a lot of watching my Dad and my uncles work on my grandfather's farm when we would visit there when I was a kid in the mid 70s. Lots of heavy equipment, no shirts, climbing w/o safety lines, cigarettes in everybody's mouth. Just an attitude of "get it done" It is no wonder "farmer" is one of the most dangerous occupations in the US. They're the last to be impacted by health and safety regulations.

ridgeguy 9y ago

My father worked on that dam. One of my favorite photos looks down on him running a small horizontal drill rig into a cliff while suspended on a rope several hundred feet above the river. Just a rope knotted around his waist, no harness. Definitely would not pass today's construction safety regulations. I agree about the relic-feeling. I guess there were giants in those days.

int_19h 9y ago

I get the same feeling even for smaller scale projects. I was looking at the I-90 at Snoqualmie Pass from below - it's effectively a very long bridge over the area there - and wondering whether I will see such infrastructure projects in my lifetime. For the curious, here are some photos of that place: https://pemco.com/blog/Lists/Photos/denny_creek_viaduct_captured_from_tv.jpg https://pemco.com/blog/Lists/Photos/denny_creek_viaduct_capt... http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/36708233.jpg http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/36708233.jpg https://scottsk.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/img_1674.jpg https://scottsk.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/img_1674.jpg

dx034 9y ago
Maybe not in the US but certainly in other countries. HK currently demonstrates that with their bridge to Macau and France's Millau Viaduct is at least as impressive as the Snoqualmie Pass [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millau_Viaduct https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millau_Viaduct
- int_19h 9y ago
  Yep, I'm specifically thinking of US. Europeans still get major infrastructure work done.