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Most internal combustion engines are only good for ~200,000 miles, even with excellent maintenance. A worn-out engine is good only for scrap, but an EV battery

Most internal combustion engines are only good for ~200,000 miles, even with excellent maintenance. A worn-out engine is good only for scrap, but an EV battery pack with 50% capacity is still very useful as a solar storage battery. Most of the 2011 Nissan Leafs are still going strong with ~80% capacity. Their outright failure rate is less than 0.02%. Cell and battery pack technology has improved dramatically since then, so I'd be very optimistic about the useful lifespan of a brand new Model S or Chevy Bolt.

bogomipz 9y ago
>"Most internal combustion engines are only good for ~200,000 miles" Interesting and I think that figure is is generally accepted and I believe this is due to shear stress on the engine block no? I know older cars that came out of Detroit when engine block were cast iron could get up to ~300k miles(the slant 6 comes to mind) but I believe nearly all engine blocks in recent makes are aluminum now.[1] The referenced article says there's parity between now between the two but that doesn't correlate with my own admittedly limited and anecdotal observations. [1]http://articles.latimes.com/2000/oct/18/news/hw-37969 http://articles.latimes.com/2000/oct/18/news/hw-37969
- jsight 9y ago
  It is generally accepted, but I'm not convinced that it is true. I suspect that most cars get replaced well before the engine's ultimate fairly. In my own (anecdotal) experience, they burn a little oil at 200k, but have plenty of life left in them.
- Arizhel 9y ago
  In the days of the Slant-6, cars never got to 300k miles unless they had ridiculously meticulous maintenance. Detroit cars were lucky to get to 100k without falling apart. These days, cars are barely broken-in at that age, and 200k is nothing remarkable. If you're not getting that kind of lifetime, then you need to stop buying a crappy brand.
  - bogomipz 9y ago
    >"In the days of the Slant-6, cars never got to 300k miles unless they had ridiculously meticulous maintenance" As the former owner of mid 1960s Slant 6 purchased with ~ 220K miles on it that I personally put another 120K before the block cracked I am telling you that you claim of "never" is just plain wrong. Aside from periodic oil changes I wouldn't describe my maintenance regime as ridiculously meticulous at all. There are many vintage Duster/Dart/Valiant owners with cars that have 200K and greater miles on them. Here are some links with attestations that corroborate this fact: http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/threads/who-has-the-highest-mileage-slant-6.158928/ http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/threads/who-has-the-high... http://www.onallcylinders.com/2014/01/20/top-10-engines-time-6-chrysler-225-slant-six/ http://www.onallcylinders.com/2014/01/20/top-10-engines-time... http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/15/automobiles/autos-monday-collecting-durable-goods-die-hard-dart-long-lived-valiant.html http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/15/automobiles/autos-monday-c... http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=ttalk&th=1743005 http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=ttal...
  - mikestew 9y ago
    How ironic that you put it that way, considering that I've known slant 6s with 300K on them. I don't know if they all did that, as I've never known a slant 6 to die, so I'm not knowledgeable of their average life. And every small block Chevy (of that era or a little later) I've owned or knew the owner could easily top 100K. The later American compact four cylinders, OTOH...
    - bogomipz 9y ago
      Indeed. Both he Chevy small block 350 and Dodge Slant 6 are both considered legendary designs.
- Gibbon1 9y ago
  > due to shear stress on the engine block no? What kills piston engines is sliding friction. Unavoidable sliding friction on pistons, valves, and camshafts results in wear. The crankshaft journal bearings are partially lubricated and wear out. Because on the power stroke the film of oil between the crankshaft bearing and the crankshaft gets squeezed out resulting in direct contact. Fully lubricated journal bearings generally last 'forever' Even if you solved the above problems, some parts like springs, valve seats, and other moving parts would eventually suffer from fatigue. Interesting calculation to make it to look at the lifetime of automotive engines in terms of hours. 200,000 miles divided by 30 mph gives a lifetime of 6600 hours. Compare with industrial electric motors and gear trains where life times of 50,000 hours are common and you can see where things are going with electric cars.
  - hcurtiss 9y ago
    All of this is true, but in my experience, it's the rare engine that meets its end due to piston/cam friction. Usually, the engine is abandoned due to the cost of maintaining all the things attached to it (e.g., water pump, alternator, master cylinder, etc.). If you're willing to suffer the nickel and dime expenses, the actual pistons/valves/camshafts usually last many hundreds of thousands of miles.
    - gwbas1c 9y ago
      EVs don't have as many things attached to the engine. I wonder if some "new" EVs will just be refurbished older EVs with a new battery and cosmetic changes.
      - Kadin 9y ago
        People want new bodywork, seats, electronics, etc. It might be possible to make all that replaceable, so that a car can be fully refurbished, and certainly that is done to commercial vehicles all the time (passenger buses, etc.), but not sure about the economics of doing it to light-duty cars and trucks. The body itself is probably not that expensive. Certainly seems like it ought to be possible to pull the motors out of an old car and drop them into a new one. But then again people do that with gasoline engines all the time, too. If you blow a head gasket in a lot of cars, the "fix" is often to replace the engine with a remanufactured engine that comes out of a crate. It's cheaper to do that than to pay for the labor to actually replace the gasket in a shop, at least in a high-cost area (NE US, especially at dealers).
irrational 9y ago
Well crap. Both of my cars have well north of 200,000 on them. I was really hoping to keep driving them for a long time to come.
- madengr 9y ago
  I had 250k on an +20 year old Toyota pickup, though things slowly start to crap. Leaky carb diaphragms due to ethanol, harmonic balancer wearing out, corroded brakes lines, bad clutch cylinder, dead ignition module. Donated that after buying a new Toyota pickup. Had that for 12 years now with zero problems. Purchased a used 2015 Nissan Leaf recently and very happy with that. We'll see how the battery holds up. I think many will ditch their cars not due to engine wear, but for stupid reasons like their smartphone not linking to the stereo.
  - icantdrive55 9y ago
    I think I'll be buried in my Toyota 22R truck. I plan on rebuilding the engine, but it's still going strong. Reminds me, I need to tune it up.
  - wapz 9y ago
    I think a much better reason that people ditch their cars is the increased safety in the newer models. Very few cars had side air bags and a decent amount didn't have ABS 15 years ago. There are a lot of other improvements surely made that I don't know about. In Japan everyone junks their cars in 10 years because of the mandatory car check-ups (we pay $400-$2000 every 2 years for the check-up then have to pay every year once the car hits 10 years old). There are some exceptions and I don't know all the rules as I just own one car.
  - photojosh 9y ago
    > for stupid reasons like their smartphone not linking to the stereo. I'm hoping to install an after-market (Pioneer) wireless CarPlay stereo in our 2009 Mazda, assuming it can wire in to the existing reversing camera. The car's just fine, but it's stupid having this double-DIN stereo with a screen that's always turned off because it's useless.
gnicholas 9y ago
In recent years there's been a shift toward smaller engines with turbochargers. I have heard folks with luxury sports cars (Audis, mostly) complain about the cost of a busted turbo, and I've wondered whether people who bought an ordinary-seeming car with a turbocharged 4-cylinder are going to be in for a nasty surprise at 50k or 100k miles. But I don't know what the life of turbos is, or if the cost of an Audi turbo replacement is partly/largely because it's an expensive car to begin with. Will Toyotas and Chevys be cheaper?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- sjclemmy 9y ago
  That rings true - I had a VW, so probably the same engine as in an Audi. I had to replace the turbo at about 100k miles. It cost me £700.
  - gnicholas 9y ago
    Glad to hear it's not more than that. I feared that this would be big profit driver for dealers doing repairs — and something that most consumers wouldn't consider when estimating the total cost of ownership of a $20-30k vehicle.
    - bluGill 9y ago
      Turbos are fairly accessible, and so it isn't a lot of labor to replace (a few hours), and the turbo itself is only a few hundred. The real worry about turbos is the common failure mode is it starts putting engine oil into the intake. In a gas engine that probably doesn't mean anything, but in a diesel engine that results in a run away engine: max throttle, higher RPMs than the engine is designed for - all while they engine is burning away its own oil that might protect things until the engine explodes. (In modern engines they put throttle valves specifically to shut off air if this happens, but old timers in industry can tell you stories)
- taneq 9y ago
deleted 9y ago
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gambiting 9y ago
Sure, but when the engine in an old Toyota gives out, you go and find a used one that works for few hundred dollars, put that in and continue driving. If a battery pack dies, you have no choice but to buy a new one.

bogomipz 9y ago

>"Most internal combustion engines are only good for ~200,000 miles" Interesting and I think that figure is is generally accepted and I believe this is due to shear stress on the engine block no? I know older cars that came out of Detroit when engine block were cast iron could get up to ~300k miles(the slant 6 comes to mind) but I believe nearly all engine blocks in recent makes are aluminum now.[1] The referenced article says there's parity between now between the two but that doesn't correlate with my own admittedly limited and anecdotal observations. [1]http://articles.latimes.com/2000/oct/18/news/hw-37969 http://articles.latimes.com/2000/oct/18/news/hw-37969

jsight 9y ago
It is generally accepted, but I'm not convinced that it is true. I suspect that most cars get replaced well before the engine's ultimate fairly. In my own (anecdotal) experience, they burn a little oil at 200k, but have plenty of life left in them.
Arizhel 9y ago
In the days of the Slant-6, cars never got to 300k miles unless they had ridiculously meticulous maintenance. Detroit cars were lucky to get to 100k without falling apart. These days, cars are barely broken-in at that age, and 200k is nothing remarkable. If you're not getting that kind of lifetime, then you need to stop buying a crappy brand.
- bogomipz 9y ago
  >"In the days of the Slant-6, cars never got to 300k miles unless they had ridiculously meticulous maintenance" As the former owner of mid 1960s Slant 6 purchased with ~ 220K miles on it that I personally put another 120K before the block cracked I am telling you that you claim of "never" is just plain wrong. Aside from periodic oil changes I wouldn't describe my maintenance regime as ridiculously meticulous at all. There are many vintage Duster/Dart/Valiant owners with cars that have 200K and greater miles on them. Here are some links with attestations that corroborate this fact: http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/threads/who-has-the-highest-mileage-slant-6.158928/ http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/threads/who-has-the-high... http://www.onallcylinders.com/2014/01/20/top-10-engines-time-6-chrysler-225-slant-six/ http://www.onallcylinders.com/2014/01/20/top-10-engines-time... http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/15/automobiles/autos-monday-collecting-durable-goods-die-hard-dart-long-lived-valiant.html http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/15/automobiles/autos-monday-c... http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=ttalk&th=1743005 http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=ttal...
- mikestew 9y ago
  How ironic that you put it that way, considering that I've known slant 6s with 300K on them. I don't know if they all did that, as I've never known a slant 6 to die, so I'm not knowledgeable of their average life. And every small block Chevy (of that era or a little later) I've owned or knew the owner could easily top 100K. The later American compact four cylinders, OTOH...
  - bogomipz 9y ago
    Indeed. Both he Chevy small block 350 and Dodge Slant 6 are both considered legendary designs.
Gibbon1 9y ago
> due to shear stress on the engine block no? What kills piston engines is sliding friction. Unavoidable sliding friction on pistons, valves, and camshafts results in wear. The crankshaft journal bearings are partially lubricated and wear out. Because on the power stroke the film of oil between the crankshaft bearing and the crankshaft gets squeezed out resulting in direct contact. Fully lubricated journal bearings generally last 'forever' Even if you solved the above problems, some parts like springs, valve seats, and other moving parts would eventually suffer from fatigue. Interesting calculation to make it to look at the lifetime of automotive engines in terms of hours. 200,000 miles divided by 30 mph gives a lifetime of 6600 hours. Compare with industrial electric motors and gear trains where life times of 50,000 hours are common and you can see where things are going with electric cars.
- hcurtiss 9y ago
  All of this is true, but in my experience, it's the rare engine that meets its end due to piston/cam friction. Usually, the engine is abandoned due to the cost of maintaining all the things attached to it (e.g., water pump, alternator, master cylinder, etc.). If you're willing to suffer the nickel and dime expenses, the actual pistons/valves/camshafts usually last many hundreds of thousands of miles.
  - gwbas1c 9y ago
    EVs don't have as many things attached to the engine. I wonder if some "new" EVs will just be refurbished older EVs with a new battery and cosmetic changes.
    - Kadin 9y ago
      People want new bodywork, seats, electronics, etc. It might be possible to make all that replaceable, so that a car can be fully refurbished, and certainly that is done to commercial vehicles all the time (passenger buses, etc.), but not sure about the economics of doing it to light-duty cars and trucks. The body itself is probably not that expensive. Certainly seems like it ought to be possible to pull the motors out of an old car and drop them into a new one. But then again people do that with gasoline engines all the time, too. If you blow a head gasket in a lot of cars, the "fix" is often to replace the engine with a remanufactured engine that comes out of a crate. It's cheaper to do that than to pay for the labor to actually replace the gasket in a shop, at least in a high-cost area (NE US, especially at dealers).

irrational 9y ago

Well crap. Both of my cars have well north of 200,000 on them. I was really hoping to keep driving them for a long time to come.

madengr 9y ago
I had 250k on an +20 year old Toyota pickup, though things slowly start to crap. Leaky carb diaphragms due to ethanol, harmonic balancer wearing out, corroded brakes lines, bad clutch cylinder, dead ignition module. Donated that after buying a new Toyota pickup. Had that for 12 years now with zero problems. Purchased a used 2015 Nissan Leaf recently and very happy with that. We'll see how the battery holds up. I think many will ditch their cars not due to engine wear, but for stupid reasons like their smartphone not linking to the stereo.
- icantdrive55 9y ago
  I think I'll be buried in my Toyota 22R truck. I plan on rebuilding the engine, but it's still going strong. Reminds me, I need to tune it up.
- wapz 9y ago
  I think a much better reason that people ditch their cars is the increased safety in the newer models. Very few cars had side air bags and a decent amount didn't have ABS 15 years ago. There are a lot of other improvements surely made that I don't know about. In Japan everyone junks their cars in 10 years because of the mandatory car check-ups (we pay $400-$2000 every 2 years for the check-up then have to pay every year once the car hits 10 years old). There are some exceptions and I don't know all the rules as I just own one car.
- photojosh 9y ago
  > for stupid reasons like their smartphone not linking to the stereo. I'm hoping to install an after-market (Pioneer) wireless CarPlay stereo in our 2009 Mazda, assuming it can wire in to the existing reversing camera. The car's just fine, but it's stupid having this double-DIN stereo with a screen that's always turned off because it's useless.

gnicholas 9y ago

In recent years there's been a shift toward smaller engines with turbochargers. I have heard folks with luxury sports cars (Audis, mostly) complain about the cost of a busted turbo, and I've wondered whether people who bought an ordinary-seeming car with a turbocharged 4-cylinder are going to be in for a nasty surprise at 50k or 100k miles. But I don't know what the life of turbos is, or if the cost of an Audi turbo replacement is partly/largely because it's an expensive car to begin with. Will Toyotas and Chevys be cheaper?

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
sjclemmy 9y ago
That rings true - I had a VW, so probably the same engine as in an Audi. I had to replace the turbo at about 100k miles. It cost me £700.
- gnicholas 9y ago
  Glad to hear it's not more than that. I feared that this would be big profit driver for dealers doing repairs — and something that most consumers wouldn't consider when estimating the total cost of ownership of a $20-30k vehicle.
  - bluGill 9y ago
    Turbos are fairly accessible, and so it isn't a lot of labor to replace (a few hours), and the turbo itself is only a few hundred. The real worry about turbos is the common failure mode is it starts putting engine oil into the intake. In a gas engine that probably doesn't mean anything, but in a diesel engine that results in a run away engine: max throttle, higher RPMs than the engine is designed for - all while they engine is burning away its own oil that might protect things until the engine explodes. (In modern engines they put throttle valves specifically to shut off air if this happens, but old timers in industry can tell you stories)
taneq 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

gambiting 9y ago

Sure, but when the engine in an old Toyota gives out, you go and find a used one that works for few hundred dollars, put that in and continue driving. If a battery pack dies, you have no choice but to buy a new one.