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Romantic Love: The problem with Western cultures

210 points by mgh2 16y ago

msluyter 16y ago
Co-incidentally, I recently read the book referenced in the article: http://www.amazon.com/Love-Limerence-Experience-Being/dp/0812862864/ http://www.amazon.com/Love-Limerence-Experience-Being/dp/081... While it's short on prescriptions for actually overcoming limerence, I found it helpful in at least understanding the mechanisms driving my limerent feelings. If you want help coping with limerence, the tribes.com forum may be of some help (though a fair amount of it is simply people broadcasting their neuroses). I have found some nuggets of good advice however: http://tribes.tribe.net/limerence http://tribes.tribe.net/limerence It's hard to say whether limerence is in and of itself a problem. Tennov takes a NPOV. Certainly, if you're supposed to be working and instead you're daydreaming about someone it's a problem. Like a lot of things, it lies on a spectrum from pleasurable to pathological or dangerous. Still, I would agree with the author's point that understanding the distinction between limerance and love can be helpful.
- jeb 16y ago
  I somehow discovered how to overcome limerence. The answer is simple - you have to trick the very subconsious that is forcing you have these feelings with it's own methods. Basically, what you do is that as soon as you start thinking of this person, imagine a series of events, starting with this person actually becoming yours, that lead to your utter fall and destruction. Like : "We fall in love, I go broke, cockroaches swarm all over the house". Done for two to three weeks, it basically cured me of all these feelings.
  - asdflkj 16y ago
    Sweet! I've got this other problem, though--I really enjoy sunshine. Anyone got a cure for that?
    - dbshapco 16y ago
      Seattle.
      - deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
    - clicks 16y ago
      I understand what you're getting at, but limerence certainly can be a bad thing, as msluyter pointed out (" Like a lot of things, it lies on a spectrum from pleasurable to pathological or dangerous."). Here's a good example of one in action: http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/cgot5/askreddit_how_do_i_make_myself_fall_out_of_love/ http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/cgot5/askreddit_h...
    - jerf 16y ago
      Limerance can wreck your life. I'm not kidding. Being with someone just long enough to have a kid may be optimal for your genes, but can really cramp your style in the modern world. The person whom I was most strongly limerant with was both unmarriable and not someone I want to be connected to by a kid for the rest of my life. Using my brain, or perhaps rather the rest of my brain, and not treating limerance as some mystical holy thing is probably in the top three best decisions I have ever made in my life, along with marrying the person for whom I never had a lot of limerance (a smidge, I suppose, but nothing by comparison), just shared values, life goals, senses of humor, and the ability to have a strong truth-based relationship with each other. You know, all that unimportant stuff next to the question of whether I feel floaty around her. Use your brain. All of it. Nobody will save you if you don't; they all think this same stupid thing. (For that matter, it's also dangerous to think that a relationship must be built on limerance and once it fades it's "over". I suppose there are more reliable ways to fail at relationships, but this is up there. The question is not whether it'll ever be "over", the question is, what will you have left once it's "over"?)
      - stat 16y ago
        I strongly agree. Limerance has never been a "great feeling" for me, especially because it pushes one to take important decisions that they would have never taken otherwise. What's best for your genes is not necessarily what's best for you.
  - nooneelse 16y ago
    When finally tired of an unrequited limerence many years back, I used anger. Whenever they came to mind, I made myself get angry at them. I would reminded myself of all the things they had done knowing that it would string me along in that state just a while longer or some small slight that, because of my feelings, they had known they could get away with, or something like that. Very similar to your method, I didn't let them enter my mind without drawing up this rebuttal feeling. About three weeks later it was amazing how free and clear my head felt. Like part of me had been asleep or drugged for years.
- dtf 16y ago
  The cure for limerance is simple: time. Namely, 2 to 3 years.
  - cousin_it 16y ago
    I'd go further and say that the cure is psychological time, i.e. having more intense experiences per hour. You have to isolate yourself completely from the object of your infatuation and then try to have very intense days, like those you had in childhood or boot camp. Do new stuff, win battles, lose battles, have sex with a lot of people. From my experience, this will cure your infatuation way faster than sitting in a room. If all parts of your mind are constantly occupied with other stuff, you go very quickly from "can't stop thinking about him/her" to "wow, a full hour without unhappy thoughts and I feel okay", to a day clean, then a week...
    - georgieporgie 16y ago
      > I'd go further and say that the cure is psychological time, i.e. having more intense experiences per hour. If I understand you correctly, you're basically saying what is more bluntly phrased, "get a life," or "get out more," in which case I entirely agree with you. As someone who once lost an object of limerant obsession, I can say the worst thing you can do is stay in the same place, doing the same thing. I noticed when traveling last year, I bumped into a number of freshly broken-up people. They are clearly wiser than I was.
- ido 16y ago
  Why would you want to overcome limerence? My problem is that it tends to go away after awhile...
  - philh 16y ago
    Because if not reciprocated, it can be horribly depressing.
  - sliverstorm 16y ago
    You have, in essence, answered your own question. My ex was convinced with the right person, limerence will last forever. Maybe she was right, but I very very very strongly suspect she was not. Overcoming it is useful because: 1: It will eventually end 2: When it does end, you'll be in for a shock- to say the least Essentially, if it lasted forever things would be great and this wouldn't be a problem. Since it doesn't, the sooner you get past it the better as far as making life choices goes.
    - ido 16y ago
      I can understand that, but I still disagree with your conclusion. Know that it doesn't last, enjoy it while it's there and try to lay the foundations for an adult relationship in the meanwhile, so that you could get past the infatuation phase (which, as you say, is inevitable) without breaking up. Being with a partner who thinks it can last forever if they just find the perfect person can be a recipe for disaster, though one would hope most people grow out of that state of mind after a few attempts.
      - sliverstorm 16y ago
        It's not my argument, but I do see some validity. You suggest 'enjoy it while its there' which is excellent advice- but at the same time, simply put, life-changing decisions aren't going to sit around and wait 3 years for limerence to wear off.
        ido 16y ago
- hernan7 16y ago
  Sorry, non-native English speaker here... Never heard the term "limerence before". Seems to be a kinda-sorta synonym of "infatuation", no? Why everybody in this thread is using it instead of just "infatuation" -- some Internet meme that I'm not aware of?
  - elblanco 16y ago
    "Infatuation" has a slightly different meaning distinct from "love" while "limerence" is a distinct and precise form of "love". Just like love can be an umbrella term for a number of similar but different emotions (love like siblings, love between parents and children, love between friends, etc.), "limerence" might also be called a "crush" or "puppy love" (if I read the article correctly). I think you can probably use it loosely as a synonym with infatuation in most contexts but the meaning is ever so slightly different. I never heard it before today either, English has a far too many words.
  - gruseom 16y ago
    It's not a real word. It was coined by the author of the book, and http://www.google.com/search?q=limerence http://www.google.com/search?q=limerence makes clear that usage of it is limited to discussions based on the book. It's a strange neologism, too, that doesn't sound right to my ear. What's the etymology? The only thing I can think of is limen (threshold) as in liminal and subliminal.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
    - danohuiginn 16y ago
      It seems there is no etymology: According to the creator, "I first used the term ‘amorance’ then changed it back to ‘limerence’... It has no roots whatsoever. It looks nice. It works well in French. Take it from me it has no etymology whatsoever." http://www.languagehat.com/archives/001708.php http://www.languagehat.com/archives/001708.php I also find myself feeling slightly uneasy when confronted by a word without etymology. Knowing it was consciously made up is somehow reassuring.
wallflower 16y ago
Can we experience limerence with new projects? The project at hand becomes your whole new world. I wonder if the reticular activating system has anything to do with it. As I remember from the director's commentary track on some Almodovar film: Love isn't love unless there is reciprocity. (This was when some male character is stalkily going through the things in a woman's abode) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reticular_activating_system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reticular_activating_system
- klodolph 16y ago
  "Limerence" specifically refers to infatuation with a person. "Cathexis" is a broader term which also applies to objects or ideas.
endlessvoid94 16y ago
This is a fantastic article. How many people are aware of this distinction, and the idea that you have to be comfortable with who someone really is rather than your vision of them? Hopefully it's rather high :-/
- ardit33 16y ago
  I had no clue until about a year and half ago. I had that intense limerence feeling, (with alll the irrationality walking in the sky when I saw her type of thing). It is intense. BUT when I was scrutinizing that person closely I knew that she was somebody that I knew wasn't right for me (in the long term anyways). So, something was wrong with my primitive instinct lying to me to be attracted to this person a lot, while the rational side was saying that this is not right, especially when scrutinizing/imagine the future. I eventually found the term, and looked at it closely. Sadly I could describe my two other 'loves' of my life (or what I thought was the feeling of love then), as simple limerence. :( But I guess, the shattering of an illusion is a price you pay for maturing up.
  - endlessvoid94 16y ago
    Yeah, otherwise known as "disillusionment" I guess.
    - keefe 16y ago
      It's called growing up. Real love is something that grows and the article would have done well to just use the word "crush" because that's what it is describing. Crushes can grow into love, but clearly don't have to.
- sliverstorm 16y ago
  Not nearly enough people. I do suspect though some basic common sense can occasionally save people, including those who know nothing about the concept. For example, I have experienced limerence with several women who were completely untenable. The primary example was deep into recreational drugs, and my basic sensibilities knew enough to fight back. I WANTED to do something, but I didn't even have to engage my higher brain and think about it to know it was a bad idea. Only problem is that limerence is over 3 years old and still not dead.
lvecsey 16y ago
Even the notion of being human is outdated. There were previous century views and now we're in a new era, with deeper understanding of what makes us up. We've gone from a blob of living matter, to a horrendously intricate biological machine.
- itistoday 16y ago
  That period stretched from a few centuries ago (Newtonian mechanics) to the first half of the 20th century. Now, I think, we're heading toward the understanding that "intricate biological machine" might not be the best of models, and that "blob of living matter" is worth revisiting. The notion of world-as-machine is becoming dated I think, as a more organic understanding arises, both from the mixing of western and eastern ideas, as well as better physics.
  - jerf 16y ago
    Also, I'd observe that our machines have become more complicated. The complexity of the first car is nothing whatsoever next to the complexity of your cell phone. The more complicated our machines get, the more organic their behavior has been getting quite naturally. (Indeed, one of the most important things about building large systems is learning how to write code that works less "organically", lest the problems that organic machines tend to have overwhelm you, things like errant state propagation and such that cause weird, weird bugs five minutes after the trigger.)
may 16y ago
Most useful thing I've read in years.
- sashthebash 16y ago
  Indeed. Nothing really related to Hacker News, but that's one of the reasons why I "love" the site... those great off topic articles that apply to almost everybody and that let you see that there is a world beyond bits and bytes.
  - may 16y ago
    Exactly.
tmsh 16y ago
I think it works like this: You think you see something amazing. You really want that. You are a human, with a brain, which is flexible and adaptable. So if you don't get what you want, you adapt and try to make the best of it, rationalizing further and further from the truth. The mind, if resolved, can adapt and see the better parts of things. A monk who lives in a post-apocalytic world could, for example, really enjoy a blooming daisy. Same pattern. But then other things come along. And finally you move on. Re: [oatmeal]...this is true love because it can be everlasting, but this is not the love script that we are bombarded with from every literary or entertainment form in our lives. I would just say, in defense of fairy tales, that some nice morals are (a) it's good to be optimistic and (b) you should step up and win. It's good practice. Seems unrealistic or even unhealthy to promote such behavior sometimes. And there is a balance. But sometimes you should step up and win. This is particularly because human infants cannot cling onto their mothers the way all primate infants can (a consequence of hairlessness and shorter arms). Awesome. ...the optimal middle area... What? That's wrong. Premature optimization. There's nothing wrong with more diversity, esp. regarding immune systems. For as long as we project god-like idealizations onto our romantic partners and demand that they make us happy as the fairy tales describe, we will never truly love them as human beings. Yeah, but clearly the qualities of steadfastness and adaptability in limerence can also be found in the qualities of steadfastness and adaptability in marriage. The difficult parts, in limerence and in marriage (though the latter I am just guessing about) are in those moments of honesty with yourself and reality.
zeynel1 16y ago
"The prince and princess merely change forms and show up on TV sitcoms, movies and fill the roles in novels, plays and even songs. The same story is being re-enacted over and over again for all ages." I think if we recognize that human organism -the individual system called human body- is a programmable organism like a computer -and tv and movies program this organism- then we would be taking a step toward understanding this concept called -love-
ericd 16y ago
Wow. I've had some girlfriends who I was not strongly limerant about, and that always bugged me when I thought about it, to the point that I thought marriage was probably out of the question. This despite the fact that I really enjoyed being with them, and had "compassionate love" for them. I tried to remind myself that that was probably Disney talking, but it's as if it has been almost hard coded into my brain. Best article I've read in months.
- AndyKelley 16y ago
  I feel like I've been hit by the other end of the spectrum. Girls have dumped me saying they only want to be friends, but then when I stop returning their calls they get really upset.
  - loewenskind 16y ago
    What do you mean? Some girls tried to play you and you responded (correctly) by cutting them off. What does this have to do with infatuation?
    - AndyKelley 16y ago
      I'm suggesting that the reason they dumped me was that they felt the companionship love but not limerance. I guess I'm simply complaining that they need to feel limerance for it to be successful in their minds.
      - ericd 16y ago
        Yeah, girls are probably even more programmed with this idea than I am. I gather from your comment that it's not a requirement for you?
        AndyKelley 16y ago
        It is to some extent, but probably less than usual. I'm not really in a position to give advice, as my longest relationship was less than 3 months long.
nooneelse 16y ago
Good article, but it doesn't back up the title given to it here.
- frossie 16y ago
  I am guessing the justification for the (admittedly editorialised) title lies in this extract: The central paradox of limerence is that someone who is actively limerent feels like they are experiencing the most unique, rapturous experience in the world even though limerence seems to have fairly universal characteristics (at least in Western cultures, although it could be argued that traditional Asian cultures do understand limerence but don't use it as a basis for marriage) Of course it's not as simple as that. Even in the West there are many different, and complex, reasons that people chose to get married, and I am sure the same is the case in Asian cultures. But as a culture-wide generalisation, I guess there is some truth in it. The thing I find peculiar sometimes in the West is not so much the fact that so much emphasis is placed on the limerence phase, but that the companionate phase is so... almost scorned. I am pretty sure that biologically and culturally the point of the former is to get us to the latter.
ca98am79 16y ago
For those interested, I recommend a book that has similar ideas and completely changed my view of love: The Art of Loving, by Erich Fromm
Rod 16y ago
"LOVE, n. A temporary insanity curable by marriage or by removal of the patient from the influences under which he incurred the disorder. This disease, like caries and many other ailments, is prevalent only among civilized races living under artificial conditions; barbarous nations breathing pure air and eating simple food enjoy immunity from its ravages. It is sometimes fatal, but more frequently to the physician than to the patient." -Ambrose Bierce
- mgh2 16y ago
  I understood everything about this awesome quote, just not the last part about the physician...can you please elaborate on that?
  - shaddi 16y ago
    If being in love is the disease, the physician is the one who tries to stop that from happening: interfere in someone's pursuit of love and you're likely going to face negative consequences!
anyo 16y ago
I've been limerant twice in my life, I'm 21 and I can say both were so far the worst times of my life. The only cure is never seeing the person again or putting a bullet in your head. I can see how it can bring joy to those for which it is reciprocated, for me it sucks and I wish it never happens again.
- ido 16y ago
  Be careful what you wish for, lest it come true.
  - loewenskind 16y ago
    The feeling is useless, sex is both much more fun and actually real. Personally I thought it was an awful thing that happened once and then you weren't susceptible to it anymore. I had no idea it could happen again.
pavlov 16y ago
Interesting points and well-written. The title given is certainly misleading. Quite honestly I don't think I've ever experienced this feeling. I have been the "limerent object" as a teenager, though. It felt simply horrible that someone was intrusively obsessing about me for years, seemingly with no regard for how I actually felt about it. For a long time afterwards, I was convinced that "love" is a socially acceptable front for something entirely selfish which has nothing to do with communication or compassion.
- Tycho 16y ago
  Not trying to be nosy, but, what qualified as 'intrusively' obsessing? Would it still bother you if you were aware of the obsession but not subject to any intrusive actions?
julius_geezer 16y ago
It is interesting that he can manage an essay of such length without mentioning Stendahl, whose _On Love_ isn't that hard to find--wasn't before Amazon, actually. One trusts that Ms.es Hatfield and Tennoy found room for him in the bibliography. And what in the world might be the proposed derivation of "limerence"? Wikipedia offers no hint, though it does use the word "crystallization", which Stendahl I believe popularized in this context.
- pmichaud 16y ago
  I'm thinking it comes from "liminal," which is a big concept in literature.
  - julius_geezer 16y ago
    I was hoping it came from "limerick", a not-so-big concept in literature, but your guess sounds better than mine.
mgh2 16y ago
Hello everybody, I am the one who posted this article and it is because I have been trying to find an answer for so many troubling things for such a long time (wait to see my post on why I shared this)...among them is that this might be the reason to the 50% divorce rate in the United States. But before we go into that, I have a question for all of you: Can someone you have been limerent about, being nonrequited, dissapointed...basically having gone through the whole pain process...still be trusted and cared about? This is actually the main reason why I sought for an answer for so long.
- jimmyjim 16y ago
  Of course. The whole point of Yee's writing is that it's imperative to transition into a companionate phase from the ephemeral and almost-superficial limerent one.
- ytNumbers 16y ago
  When it comes to advice: Wise men don't need it, and fools won't heed it. And those who want it the most, like it the least. There's plenty of fish in the sea. Life's too short to waste it with people who can't/won't return your affections. Of course, if masochism is your thing, by all means go ahead and reopen that old wound, and bring on the pain.
  - mgh2 16y ago
    Except that the limerent one was her, and I am just trying to give advice of the very pain she taught me. Yeah, I admit, it is complicated.
    - loewenskind 16y ago
      The advice remains the same. You/she tried. It didn't work out. Move on to the next.
- ido 16y ago
  Why do this to yourself? Go on with your life and find someone else to trust and care about. There is no shortage of humans in the world.
AndyKelley 16y ago
I was with it until "In the end, the basis of a stable relationship is founded on a love that emerges not in spite of but because of the other person’s flaws and weaknesses, because ultimately it is our imperfections that make us human." It seems more logical to me to love someone in spite of their flaws.
Tycho 16y ago
Rather than getting rid of 'limerent' feelings, is it possible to channel them into motivation for something else? For instance, Y loves unobtainable woman X, but sees there's no reason why X should want Y, therefore sets about a disciplined program of self-improvement and wealth/prospect/prestige-accumulation in the hope that X may one day be attracted. It comes back to the universal problem of how to focus ones mind in order to become more productive.
- rue 16y ago
  No, it is not.
- georgieporgie 16y ago
  > therefore sets about a disciplined program of self-improvement > and wealth/prospect/prestige-accumulation in the hope that > X may one day be attracted. That's basically the plot of every mind-poisoning, B.S. movie fed to American (all Western?) youth. So many men, especially young men, believe in this concept of winning over their love. Somehow he'll make her love him (creepy overtones of misogyny). He'll convince her that he's worth loving. If you really like yourself, then that's good enough. If you're not happy with yourself, yeah, improve. But don't ever think you need to improve for someone else[1]. Anyone who actually responds to this is a manipulative jerk who will gradually up the stakes to watch you dance. If X doesn't win over Y, he should consider whether he feels he needs to improve in any areas, pursue any changes, then see how things go when he bumps into Z, having forgotten about Y. [1] - exception: unquestionably defective personality traits (alcoholism, gambling addiction, abusiveness) when you're in a long-term relationship and you both agree to work on it.
  - Tycho 16y ago
    Personally I think the more 'poisonous' idea is that 'you are who you are' and that people don't respond to actual values/achievements. Who wants to be loved in spite of what's good about them, of what they try to do. The films you talk about usually show a very superficial process of improvement, typically involving dressing in cooler clothes, lots of silly shenanigans, taking on some new hobbies, and going places to 'hang out.' I'm talking about actual achievements, starting with getting yourself in shape and becoming more entertaining, but extending to meeting your academic potential, finding a good career, developing new skills, committing to side projects, establishing a network of admirable friends, broadening your horizons etc. Things that would serve X well regardless of whether they really do impress Y in the end. With the quality of life possible in the West on a meagre wage, it's tempting to coast through life achieving a fraction of your potential
thornad 16y ago
We are very attracted when we project on the other that which we repress or feel missing in ourselves, a part of our own un-developed, unaccepted or unknown true nature. Therefore the need to merge. Best thing in this case is to see what that is in ourselves. Cherish the relationship, while knowing the other is not neccessarily what we project on them, but a catalyst for us to know ourselves better. Same thing goes for intense hate by the way. It's all towards unowned features of ourselves, but we project it on the other when they have the slightest resemblence to it. Like the old bard said: "There's so many different worlds / So many different suns / And we have just one world / But we live in different ones"
metra 16y ago
Mirror?
mgh2 16y ago
As you guys know, the website has been taken down due to excessive traffic...my apologies to Nick Yee, I contacted him to fix this problem. Thank you, Trend Guardian publisher
- nky335 16y ago
  It's actually not your fault. My web host is moving the server hosting my domain and they've clearly messed up somehow. I'm in the midst of resolving this with them. In the mean time, if you google "Love in Four Acts", Google has the article in its cache. Sorry for the inconvenience all. Nick
  - mgh2 16y ago
    It got fixed, thanks!

210 points by mgh2 16y ago

Co-incidentally, I recently read the book referenced in the article: http://www.amazon.com/Love-Limerence-Experience-Being/dp/0812862864/ http://www.amazon.com/Love-Limerence-Experience-Being/dp/081... While it's short on prescriptions for actually overcoming limerence, I found it helpful in at least understanding the mechanisms driving my limerent feelings. If you want help coping with limerence, the tribes.com forum may be of some help (though a fair amount of it is simply people broadcasting their neuroses). I have found some nuggets of good advice however: http://tribes.tribe.net/limerence http://tribes.tribe.net/limerence It's hard to say whether limerence is in and of itself a problem. Tennov takes a NPOV. Certainly, if you're supposed to be working and instead you're daydreaming about someone it's a problem. Like a lot of things, it lies on a spectrum from pleasurable to pathological or dangerous. Still, I would agree with the author's point that understanding the distinction between limerance and love can be helpful.

jeb 16y ago
I somehow discovered how to overcome limerence. The answer is simple - you have to trick the very subconsious that is forcing you have these feelings with it's own methods. Basically, what you do is that as soon as you start thinking of this person, imagine a series of events, starting with this person actually becoming yours, that lead to your utter fall and destruction. Like : "We fall in love, I go broke, cockroaches swarm all over the house". Done for two to three weeks, it basically cured me of all these feelings.
- asdflkj 16y ago
  Sweet! I've got this other problem, though--I really enjoy sunshine. Anyone got a cure for that?
  - dbshapco 16y ago
    Seattle.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
  - clicks 16y ago
    I understand what you're getting at, but limerence certainly can be a bad thing, as msluyter pointed out (" Like a lot of things, it lies on a spectrum from pleasurable to pathological or dangerous."). Here's a good example of one in action: http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/cgot5/askreddit_how_do_i_make_myself_fall_out_of_love/ http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/cgot5/askreddit_h...
  - jerf 16y ago
    Limerance can wreck your life. I'm not kidding. Being with someone just long enough to have a kid may be optimal for your genes, but can really cramp your style in the modern world. The person whom I was most strongly limerant with was both unmarriable and not someone I want to be connected to by a kid for the rest of my life. Using my brain, or perhaps rather the rest of my brain, and not treating limerance as some mystical holy thing is probably in the top three best decisions I have ever made in my life, along with marrying the person for whom I never had a lot of limerance (a smidge, I suppose, but nothing by comparison), just shared values, life goals, senses of humor, and the ability to have a strong truth-based relationship with each other. You know, all that unimportant stuff next to the question of whether I feel floaty around her. Use your brain. All of it. Nobody will save you if you don't; they all think this same stupid thing. (For that matter, it's also dangerous to think that a relationship must be built on limerance and once it fades it's "over". I suppose there are more reliable ways to fail at relationships, but this is up there. The question is not whether it'll ever be "over", the question is, what will you have left once it's "over"?)
    - stat 16y ago
      I strongly agree. Limerance has never been a "great feeling" for me, especially because it pushes one to take important decisions that they would have never taken otherwise. What's best for your genes is not necessarily what's best for you.
- nooneelse 16y ago
  When finally tired of an unrequited limerence many years back, I used anger. Whenever they came to mind, I made myself get angry at them. I would reminded myself of all the things they had done knowing that it would string me along in that state just a while longer or some small slight that, because of my feelings, they had known they could get away with, or something like that. Very similar to your method, I didn't let them enter my mind without drawing up this rebuttal feeling. About three weeks later it was amazing how free and clear my head felt. Like part of me had been asleep or drugged for years.
dtf 16y ago
The cure for limerance is simple: time. Namely, 2 to 3 years.
- cousin_it 16y ago
  I'd go further and say that the cure is psychological time, i.e. having more intense experiences per hour. You have to isolate yourself completely from the object of your infatuation and then try to have very intense days, like those you had in childhood or boot camp. Do new stuff, win battles, lose battles, have sex with a lot of people. From my experience, this will cure your infatuation way faster than sitting in a room. If all parts of your mind are constantly occupied with other stuff, you go very quickly from "can't stop thinking about him/her" to "wow, a full hour without unhappy thoughts and I feel okay", to a day clean, then a week...
  - georgieporgie 16y ago
    > I'd go further and say that the cure is psychological time, i.e. having more intense experiences per hour. If I understand you correctly, you're basically saying what is more bluntly phrased, "get a life," or "get out more," in which case I entirely agree with you. As someone who once lost an object of limerant obsession, I can say the worst thing you can do is stay in the same place, doing the same thing. I noticed when traveling last year, I bumped into a number of freshly broken-up people. They are clearly wiser than I was.
ido 16y ago
Why would you want to overcome limerence? My problem is that it tends to go away after awhile...
- philh 16y ago
  Because if not reciprocated, it can be horribly depressing.
- sliverstorm 16y ago
  You have, in essence, answered your own question. My ex was convinced with the right person, limerence will last forever. Maybe she was right, but I very very very strongly suspect she was not. Overcoming it is useful because: 1: It will eventually end 2: When it does end, you'll be in for a shock- to say the least Essentially, if it lasted forever things would be great and this wouldn't be a problem. Since it doesn't, the sooner you get past it the better as far as making life choices goes.
  - ido 16y ago
    I can understand that, but I still disagree with your conclusion. Know that it doesn't last, enjoy it while it's there and try to lay the foundations for an adult relationship in the meanwhile, so that you could get past the infatuation phase (which, as you say, is inevitable) without breaking up. Being with a partner who thinks it can last forever if they just find the perfect person can be a recipe for disaster, though one would hope most people grow out of that state of mind after a few attempts.
    - sliverstorm 16y ago
      It's not my argument, but I do see some validity. You suggest 'enjoy it while its there' which is excellent advice- but at the same time, simply put, life-changing decisions aren't going to sit around and wait 3 years for limerence to wear off.
      - ido 16y ago
hernan7 16y ago
Sorry, non-native English speaker here... Never heard the term "limerence before". Seems to be a kinda-sorta synonym of "infatuation", no? Why everybody in this thread is using it instead of just "infatuation" -- some Internet meme that I'm not aware of?
- elblanco 16y ago
  "Infatuation" has a slightly different meaning distinct from "love" while "limerence" is a distinct and precise form of "love". Just like love can be an umbrella term for a number of similar but different emotions (love like siblings, love between parents and children, love between friends, etc.), "limerence" might also be called a "crush" or "puppy love" (if I read the article correctly). I think you can probably use it loosely as a synonym with infatuation in most contexts but the meaning is ever so slightly different. I never heard it before today either, English has a far too many words.
- gruseom 16y ago
  It's not a real word. It was coined by the author of the book, and http://www.google.com/search?q=limerence http://www.google.com/search?q=limerence makes clear that usage of it is limited to discussions based on the book. It's a strange neologism, too, that doesn't sound right to my ear. What's the etymology? The only thing I can think of is limen (threshold) as in liminal and subliminal.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - danohuiginn 16y ago
    It seems there is no etymology: According to the creator, "I first used the term ‘amorance’ then changed it back to ‘limerence’... It has no roots whatsoever. It looks nice. It works well in French. Take it from me it has no etymology whatsoever." http://www.languagehat.com/archives/001708.php http://www.languagehat.com/archives/001708.php I also find myself feeling slightly uneasy when confronted by a word without etymology. Knowing it was consciously made up is somehow reassuring.

wallflower 16y ago

Can we experience limerence with new projects? The project at hand becomes your whole new world. I wonder if the reticular activating system has anything to do with it. As I remember from the director's commentary track on some Almodovar film: Love isn't love unless there is reciprocity. (This was when some male character is stalkily going through the things in a woman's abode) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reticular_activating_system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reticular_activating_system

klodolph 16y ago
"Limerence" specifically refers to infatuation with a person. "Cathexis" is a broader term which also applies to objects or ideas.

endlessvoid94 16y ago

This is a fantastic article. How many people are aware of this distinction, and the idea that you have to be comfortable with who someone really is rather than your vision of them? Hopefully it's rather high :-/

ardit33 16y ago
I had no clue until about a year and half ago. I had that intense limerence feeling, (with alll the irrationality walking in the sky when I saw her type of thing). It is intense. BUT when I was scrutinizing that person closely I knew that she was somebody that I knew wasn't right for me (in the long term anyways). So, something was wrong with my primitive instinct lying to me to be attracted to this person a lot, while the rational side was saying that this is not right, especially when scrutinizing/imagine the future. I eventually found the term, and looked at it closely. Sadly I could describe my two other 'loves' of my life (or what I thought was the feeling of love then), as simple limerence. :( But I guess, the shattering of an illusion is a price you pay for maturing up.
- endlessvoid94 16y ago
  Yeah, otherwise known as "disillusionment" I guess.
  - keefe 16y ago
    It's called growing up. Real love is something that grows and the article would have done well to just use the word "crush" because that's what it is describing. Crushes can grow into love, but clearly don't have to.
sliverstorm 16y ago
Not nearly enough people. I do suspect though some basic common sense can occasionally save people, including those who know nothing about the concept. For example, I have experienced limerence with several women who were completely untenable. The primary example was deep into recreational drugs, and my basic sensibilities knew enough to fight back. I WANTED to do something, but I didn't even have to engage my higher brain and think about it to know it was a bad idea. Only problem is that limerence is over 3 years old and still not dead.

lvecsey 16y ago

Even the notion of being human is outdated. There were previous century views and now we're in a new era, with deeper understanding of what makes us up. We've gone from a blob of living matter, to a horrendously intricate biological machine.

itistoday 16y ago
That period stretched from a few centuries ago (Newtonian mechanics) to the first half of the 20th century. Now, I think, we're heading toward the understanding that "intricate biological machine" might not be the best of models, and that "blob of living matter" is worth revisiting. The notion of world-as-machine is becoming dated I think, as a more organic understanding arises, both from the mixing of western and eastern ideas, as well as better physics.
- jerf 16y ago
  Also, I'd observe that our machines have become more complicated. The complexity of the first car is nothing whatsoever next to the complexity of your cell phone. The more complicated our machines get, the more organic their behavior has been getting quite naturally. (Indeed, one of the most important things about building large systems is learning how to write code that works less "organically", lest the problems that organic machines tend to have overwhelm you, things like errant state propagation and such that cause weird, weird bugs five minutes after the trigger.)

may 16y ago

Most useful thing I've read in years.

sashthebash 16y ago
Indeed. Nothing really related to Hacker News, but that's one of the reasons why I "love" the site... those great off topic articles that apply to almost everybody and that let you see that there is a world beyond bits and bytes.
- may 16y ago
  Exactly.

tmsh 16y ago

I think it works like this: You think you see something amazing. You really want that. You are a human, with a brain, which is flexible and adaptable. So if you don't get what you want, you adapt and try to make the best of it, rationalizing further and further from the truth. The mind, if resolved, can adapt and see the better parts of things. A monk who lives in a post-apocalytic world could, for example, really enjoy a blooming daisy. Same pattern. But then other things come along. And finally you move on. Re: [oatmeal]...this is true love because it can be everlasting, but this is not the love script that we are bombarded with from every literary or entertainment form in our lives. I would just say, in defense of fairy tales, that some nice morals are (a) it's good to be optimistic and (b) you should step up and win. It's good practice. Seems unrealistic or even unhealthy to promote such behavior sometimes. And there is a balance. But sometimes you should step up and win. This is particularly because human infants cannot cling onto their mothers the way all primate infants can (a consequence of hairlessness and shorter arms). Awesome. ...the optimal middle area... What? That's wrong. Premature optimization. There's nothing wrong with more diversity, esp. regarding immune systems. For as long as we project god-like idealizations onto our romantic partners and demand that they make us happy as the fairy tales describe, we will never truly love them as human beings. Yeah, but clearly the qualities of steadfastness and adaptability in limerence can also be found in the qualities of steadfastness and adaptability in marriage. The difficult parts, in limerence and in marriage (though the latter I am just guessing about) are in those moments of honesty with yourself and reality.

zeynel1 16y ago

"The prince and princess merely change forms and show up on TV sitcoms, movies and fill the roles in novels, plays and even songs. The same story is being re-enacted over and over again for all ages." I think if we recognize that human organism -the individual system called human body- is a programmable organism like a computer -and tv and movies program this organism- then we would be taking a step toward understanding this concept called -love-

ericd 16y ago

Wow. I've had some girlfriends who I was not strongly limerant about, and that always bugged me when I thought about it, to the point that I thought marriage was probably out of the question. This despite the fact that I really enjoyed being with them, and had "compassionate love" for them. I tried to remind myself that that was probably Disney talking, but it's as if it has been almost hard coded into my brain. Best article I've read in months.

AndyKelley 16y ago
I feel like I've been hit by the other end of the spectrum. Girls have dumped me saying they only want to be friends, but then when I stop returning their calls they get really upset.
- loewenskind 16y ago
  What do you mean? Some girls tried to play you and you responded (correctly) by cutting them off. What does this have to do with infatuation?
  - AndyKelley 16y ago
    I'm suggesting that the reason they dumped me was that they felt the companionship love but not limerance. I guess I'm simply complaining that they need to feel limerance for it to be successful in their minds.
    - ericd 16y ago
      Yeah, girls are probably even more programmed with this idea than I am. I gather from your comment that it's not a requirement for you?
      - AndyKelley 16y ago
        It is to some extent, but probably less than usual. I'm not really in a position to give advice, as my longest relationship was less than 3 months long.

nooneelse 16y ago

Good article, but it doesn't back up the title given to it here.

frossie 16y ago
I am guessing the justification for the (admittedly editorialised) title lies in this extract: The central paradox of limerence is that someone who is actively limerent feels like they are experiencing the most unique, rapturous experience in the world even though limerence seems to have fairly universal characteristics (at least in Western cultures, although it could be argued that traditional Asian cultures do understand limerence but don't use it as a basis for marriage) Of course it's not as simple as that. Even in the West there are many different, and complex, reasons that people chose to get married, and I am sure the same is the case in Asian cultures. But as a culture-wide generalisation, I guess there is some truth in it. The thing I find peculiar sometimes in the West is not so much the fact that so much emphasis is placed on the limerence phase, but that the companionate phase is so... almost scorned. I am pretty sure that biologically and culturally the point of the former is to get us to the latter.

ca98am79 16y ago

For those interested, I recommend a book that has similar ideas and completely changed my view of love: The Art of Loving, by Erich Fromm

Rod 16y ago

"LOVE, n. A temporary insanity curable by marriage or by removal of the patient from the influences under which he incurred the disorder. This disease, like caries and many other ailments, is prevalent only among civilized races living under artificial conditions; barbarous nations breathing pure air and eating simple food enjoy immunity from its ravages. It is sometimes fatal, but more frequently to the physician than to the patient." -Ambrose Bierce

mgh2 16y ago
I understood everything about this awesome quote, just not the last part about the physician...can you please elaborate on that?
- shaddi 16y ago
  If being in love is the disease, the physician is the one who tries to stop that from happening: interfere in someone's pursuit of love and you're likely going to face negative consequences!

anyo 16y ago

I've been limerant twice in my life, I'm 21 and I can say both were so far the worst times of my life. The only cure is never seeing the person again or putting a bullet in your head. I can see how it can bring joy to those for which it is reciprocated, for me it sucks and I wish it never happens again.

ido 16y ago
Be careful what you wish for, lest it come true.
- loewenskind 16y ago
  The feeling is useless, sex is both much more fun and actually real. Personally I thought it was an awful thing that happened once and then you weren't susceptible to it anymore. I had no idea it could happen again.

pavlov 16y ago

Interesting points and well-written. The title given is certainly misleading. Quite honestly I don't think I've ever experienced this feeling. I have been the "limerent object" as a teenager, though. It felt simply horrible that someone was intrusively obsessing about me for years, seemingly with no regard for how I actually felt about it. For a long time afterwards, I was convinced that "love" is a socially acceptable front for something entirely selfish which has nothing to do with communication or compassion.

Tycho 16y ago
Not trying to be nosy, but, what qualified as 'intrusively' obsessing? Would it still bother you if you were aware of the obsession but not subject to any intrusive actions?

julius_geezer 16y ago

It is interesting that he can manage an essay of such length without mentioning Stendahl, whose _On Love_ isn't that hard to find--wasn't before Amazon, actually. One trusts that Ms.es Hatfield and Tennoy found room for him in the bibliography. And what in the world might be the proposed derivation of "limerence"? Wikipedia offers no hint, though it does use the word "crystallization", which Stendahl I believe popularized in this context.

pmichaud 16y ago
I'm thinking it comes from "liminal," which is a big concept in literature.
- julius_geezer 16y ago
  I was hoping it came from "limerick", a not-so-big concept in literature, but your guess sounds better than mine.

mgh2 16y ago

Hello everybody, I am the one who posted this article and it is because I have been trying to find an answer for so many troubling things for such a long time (wait to see my post on why I shared this)...among them is that this might be the reason to the 50% divorce rate in the United States. But before we go into that, I have a question for all of you: Can someone you have been limerent about, being nonrequited, dissapointed...basically having gone through the whole pain process...still be trusted and cared about? This is actually the main reason why I sought for an answer for so long.

jimmyjim 16y ago
Of course. The whole point of Yee's writing is that it's imperative to transition into a companionate phase from the ephemeral and almost-superficial limerent one.
ytNumbers 16y ago
When it comes to advice: Wise men don't need it, and fools won't heed it. And those who want it the most, like it the least. There's plenty of fish in the sea. Life's too short to waste it with people who can't/won't return your affections. Of course, if masochism is your thing, by all means go ahead and reopen that old wound, and bring on the pain.
- mgh2 16y ago
  Except that the limerent one was her, and I am just trying to give advice of the very pain she taught me. Yeah, I admit, it is complicated.
  - loewenskind 16y ago
    The advice remains the same. You/she tried. It didn't work out. Move on to the next.
ido 16y ago
Why do this to yourself? Go on with your life and find someone else to trust and care about. There is no shortage of humans in the world.

AndyKelley 16y ago

I was with it until "In the end, the basis of a stable relationship is founded on a love that emerges not in spite of but because of the other person’s flaws and weaknesses, because ultimately it is our imperfections that make us human." It seems more logical to me to love someone in spite of their flaws.

Tycho 16y ago

Rather than getting rid of 'limerent' feelings, is it possible to channel them into motivation for something else? For instance, Y loves unobtainable woman X, but sees there's no reason why X should want Y, therefore sets about a disciplined program of self-improvement and wealth/prospect/prestige-accumulation in the hope that X may one day be attracted. It comes back to the universal problem of how to focus ones mind in order to become more productive.

rue 16y ago
No, it is not.
georgieporgie 16y ago
> therefore sets about a disciplined program of self-improvement > and wealth/prospect/prestige-accumulation in the hope that > X may one day be attracted. That's basically the plot of every mind-poisoning, B.S. movie fed to American (all Western?) youth. So many men, especially young men, believe in this concept of winning over their love. Somehow he'll make her love him (creepy overtones of misogyny). He'll convince her that he's worth loving. If you really like yourself, then that's good enough. If you're not happy with yourself, yeah, improve. But don't ever think you need to improve for someone else[1]. Anyone who actually responds to this is a manipulative jerk who will gradually up the stakes to watch you dance. If X doesn't win over Y, he should consider whether he feels he needs to improve in any areas, pursue any changes, then see how things go when he bumps into Z, having forgotten about Y. [1] - exception: unquestionably defective personality traits (alcoholism, gambling addiction, abusiveness) when you're in a long-term relationship and you both agree to work on it.
- Tycho 16y ago
  Personally I think the more 'poisonous' idea is that 'you are who you are' and that people don't respond to actual values/achievements. Who wants to be loved in spite of what's good about them, of what they try to do. The films you talk about usually show a very superficial process of improvement, typically involving dressing in cooler clothes, lots of silly shenanigans, taking on some new hobbies, and going places to 'hang out.' I'm talking about actual achievements, starting with getting yourself in shape and becoming more entertaining, but extending to meeting your academic potential, finding a good career, developing new skills, committing to side projects, establishing a network of admirable friends, broadening your horizons etc. Things that would serve X well regardless of whether they really do impress Y in the end. With the quality of life possible in the West on a meagre wage, it's tempting to coast through life achieving a fraction of your potential

thornad 16y ago

We are very attracted when we project on the other that which we repress or feel missing in ourselves, a part of our own un-developed, unaccepted or unknown true nature. Therefore the need to merge. Best thing in this case is to see what that is in ourselves. Cherish the relationship, while knowing the other is not neccessarily what we project on them, but a catalyst for us to know ourselves better. Same thing goes for intense hate by the way. It's all towards unowned features of ourselves, but we project it on the other when they have the slightest resemblence to it. Like the old bard said: "There's so many different worlds / So many different suns / And we have just one world / But we live in different ones"

metra 16y ago

Mirror?

mgh2 16y ago

As you guys know, the website has been taken down due to excessive traffic...my apologies to Nick Yee, I contacted him to fix this problem. Thank you, Trend Guardian publisher

nky335 16y ago
It's actually not your fault. My web host is moving the server hosting my domain and they've clearly messed up somehow. I'm in the midst of resolving this with them. In the mean time, if you google "Love in Four Acts", Google has the article in its cache. Sorry for the inconvenience all. Nick
- mgh2 16y ago
  It got fixed, thanks!