5 ms·

If what you are hoping for is a situation where manufacturers will sell printers at a loss and then also sell ink at cost, I don't think that's a long-run equil

by asr 9y ago

If what you are hoping for is a situation where manufacturers will sell printers at a loss and then also sell ink at cost, I don't think that's a long-run equilibrium. If you are looking for printers where you can get ink at cost in exchange for paying a bit more up front, that's available now: https://epson.com/ecotank-super-tank-printers https://epson.com/ecotank-super-tank-printers Kodak also did this ~10 years ago [1] but I cannot figure out if they still use this business model. [1] https://outline.com/7ZNnYV https://outline.com/7ZNnYV

ChuckMcM 9y ago
Thanks for the link to the Eco-Tank/Super Tank printers from Epson. I have ordered one of the wide-format ones to see how well it works. Sad that the 'print only' wide format is only available outside the US. Seems like 'print only' is the 'manual transmission' of the printer market :-) What I always hope for, and never expect, is people competing and using engineering quality as a competitive discriminator. I want the ink jet printer that German engineers designed to show they could do a better job than the Swiss engineers. The one that prints repeatably color and registration accurate prints as the building it is in burns down around it. I had a Mannesmann-Tally printer that I swear would stop bullets while it continued to chug away on your printouts. I remember those days fondly :-). I'll settle for paying a 50% gross margin on a printer that is supported by all my systems, doesn't use a proprietary paper, ink, or other part that insures I can continue to use and service it for 10 years.
- URSpider94 9y ago
  I've heard this point expressed by lots of people with regards to different products in the markets, i.e. "I would pay a lot more for the product if it did x." The fact that such a product doesn't exist tells me that either there aren't enough consumers like you out there to make a market at an acceptable price, or that consumers like you are willing to defect and buy a cheaper product, if it's cheaper by a large enough margin. Again, not doubting your desires, but the market is giving you its answer to your offer ...
  - ChuckMcM 9y ago
    You are correct. I (and as I found out, many others!) have created a label for this effect, crapitalism. It arises from the bulk of the market preferring price over quality. When that happens, vendors that make a product for a lower price at the expense of quality take market share from vendors who maintain quality. The reduced volume at the quality vendor reduces their scale economics which puts still more pressure on margins, and they end up exiting the market. When quality has been completely driven out of the market (as it nearly has been in USB chargers) you get companies that can command better margins by having better quality. I have always hoped that we might some day get a market maker for quality, imagine something like EBay but instead of matching up yard sale customers with swap meet vendors you matched up customers with the means and willingness to both recognize and pay for quality. Still waiting on that :-)
    - URSpider94 9y ago
      This is the basis for "The Innovator's Solution", and another word for it is "disruption". In the book, Christensen argues that existing suppliers target ever-higher quality (because they have the technology to do so), leaving room for "good-enough" vendors to undercut them and take away their volume product-by-product, meanwhile funding them to develop ever-better products.
      - ChuckMcM 9y ago
        Suffice it to say I disagree with Christensen and have some truly remarkable proof of that, which this comment is too small to contain. :-)
    - souprock 9y ago
      Information asymmetry is the problem. We might want quality and be willing to pay for it, but still buy the cheap junk because we can't reliably identify quality in the marketplace. Paying more for a product could get more quality, but it might just be paying more. It's a variation of the cherries and lemons in the used-car market.
- icantdrive55 9y ago
  I just stopped printing when they went to chipped cartridges, and ultra pricy inks. I personally think the Printing industry shot themselves in the foot trying to weasel out more money from us. I got an Epson R2400 that just went back into the box years ago. I used to print so many pictures. It was fun. Now--I only print when really needed.
stale2002 9y ago
Well then the companies that are selling the printers at a loss will have to change their business model or go out of business.

by asr 9y ago

ChuckMcM 9y ago

Thanks for the link to the Eco-Tank/Super Tank printers from Epson. I have ordered one of the wide-format ones to see how well it works. Sad that the 'print only' wide format is only available outside the US. Seems like 'print only' is the 'manual transmission' of the printer market :-) What I always hope for, and never expect, is people competing and using engineering quality as a competitive discriminator. I want the ink jet printer that German engineers designed to show they could do a better job than the Swiss engineers. The one that prints repeatably color and registration accurate prints as the building it is in burns down around it. I had a Mannesmann-Tally printer that I swear would stop bullets while it continued to chug away on your printouts. I remember those days fondly :-). I'll settle for paying a 50% gross margin on a printer that is supported by all my systems, doesn't use a proprietary paper, ink, or other part that insures I can continue to use and service it for 10 years.

URSpider94 9y ago
I've heard this point expressed by lots of people with regards to different products in the markets, i.e. "I would pay a lot more for the product if it did x." The fact that such a product doesn't exist tells me that either there aren't enough consumers like you out there to make a market at an acceptable price, or that consumers like you are willing to defect and buy a cheaper product, if it's cheaper by a large enough margin. Again, not doubting your desires, but the market is giving you its answer to your offer ...
- ChuckMcM 9y ago
  You are correct. I (and as I found out, many others!) have created a label for this effect, crapitalism. It arises from the bulk of the market preferring price over quality. When that happens, vendors that make a product for a lower price at the expense of quality take market share from vendors who maintain quality. The reduced volume at the quality vendor reduces their scale economics which puts still more pressure on margins, and they end up exiting the market. When quality has been completely driven out of the market (as it nearly has been in USB chargers) you get companies that can command better margins by having better quality. I have always hoped that we might some day get a market maker for quality, imagine something like EBay but instead of matching up yard sale customers with swap meet vendors you matched up customers with the means and willingness to both recognize and pay for quality. Still waiting on that :-)
  - URSpider94 9y ago
    This is the basis for "The Innovator's Solution", and another word for it is "disruption". In the book, Christensen argues that existing suppliers target ever-higher quality (because they have the technology to do so), leaving room for "good-enough" vendors to undercut them and take away their volume product-by-product, meanwhile funding them to develop ever-better products.
    - ChuckMcM 9y ago
      Suffice it to say I disagree with Christensen and have some truly remarkable proof of that, which this comment is too small to contain. :-)
  - souprock 9y ago
    Information asymmetry is the problem. We might want quality and be willing to pay for it, but still buy the cheap junk because we can't reliably identify quality in the marketplace. Paying more for a product could get more quality, but it might just be paying more. It's a variation of the cherries and lemons in the used-car market.
icantdrive55 9y ago
I just stopped printing when they went to chipped cartridges, and ultra pricy inks. I personally think the Printing industry shot themselves in the foot trying to weasel out more money from us. I got an Epson R2400 that just went back into the box years ago. I used to print so many pictures. It was fun. Now--I only print when really needed.

stale2002 9y ago

Well then the companies that are selling the printers at a loss will have to change their business model or go out of business.