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> Raspberry pi is likely not and you don't know it exists. If a kid can't type "how do computers work" in google, they probably won't become a programmer. Are

> Raspberry pi is likely not and you don't know it exists. If a kid can't type "how do computers work" in google, they probably won't become a programmer. Are we really wringing our hands over that? > All the myths around cs tend reinforce such nonsense. There's another bit of nonsense around CS that a lot of people here believe - that there are all these secretly good programmers out there who just don't know they're programmers because no one ever told them how to start, and that they might not even know what programming is because it's so difficult to get started. I find it nearly impossible to believe that there are all these smart people out there, surrounded by technology, with hacking and computers in every TV show, with the President telling them to "learn how to code", Bill Gates' name dropped by rappers, Google in everyones' pocket - and no one is typing "how does my smartphone/videogame/internet work" and reading the results? Like, who is still walking around like, "I got good grades in school and knew people could become doctors, but I didn't know people could make computers go! Why didn't anyone tell me?!" Are there other problems keeping people from breaking into the industry? Absolutely. Is "not knowing where to look" one of them? There's no way that it can be, not anymore.

watwut 9y ago
> If a kid can't type "how do computers work" in google, they probably won't become a programmer. Are we really wringing our hands over that? If a kid cant type "how human body works" in google, they probably won't become a biologists. Somehow, being constantly surrounded by all those bodies and dogs and grass they did not learned biology. Except that they come to college and do learn. But realistically, "how do computers work" is such a broad question that it does not have to do with anything. It is literally irrelevant question to anything practical. But that is literally this culture I am talking about - the conviction that if you already don't know stuff and was not interested in the past, you are not talented point stop don't even try. Math teachers nor chemistry teachers assume that - if you are curious now are happy with you learning now. > that there are all these secretly good programmers out there who just don't know they're programmers because no one ever told them how to start, They are not secretly good programmers. That takes more then just aptitude. But yeah, a student with good memory and basic math aptitude has genetics for programming. There is nothing special about us. The hardest part of beginner is to figure out what makes sense to learn and what not. > and that they might not even know what programming is because it's so difficult to get started. Well, it is difficult when you don't know what to do and get told you probably don't have aptitude first time you struggle with something. It is easy if you learned from simple concepts, either because you run into right game or because you run into good teacher or book. Exactly like any other learnable skill - math, chemistry, law, physics and so on. > "with hacking and computers in every TV show" That has nothing to do with reality. I see sword fights in many movies too. > "and no one is typing "how does my smartphone/videogame/internet work" and reading the results?" What does that question have to do with building sofware? Like, real world software with real world homework that suddenly out of nowhere expects you to have skills that were not taught previously. What does that question have to do with algorithms? Programming languages? Whether the students would be more attracted to solving problems side or building things side or theory side or software engineering side, your how does videogame works is largely irrelevant. Plus the answer will be high level overview of memory/cpu and such. > Are there other problems keeping people from breaking into the industry? Absolutely. Is "not knowing where to look" one of them? There's no way that it can be, not anymore. You did not suggested a single practical place for beginner to learn stuff. Only few very general question that does not necessary lead to programming - most of them would lead to electronics at best. And such good resources exist, but none of your suggestions lead to them. The "breaking into the industry" is far away from "starting with programming". But then again, that is part of nonsense around this. I know people who found a job with very little knowledge in small company just because they looked confident and hiring manager was inexperienced. Few of them even became good programmers, although they created huge mess on their way there and had to rely at politics a lot. But somehow, a honest student with good results in pretty much everything else is assumed unable to learn the same, because he is less good at pretending.
- brandonmenc 9y ago
  > What does that question have to do with building sofware? Like, real world software with real world homework that suddenly out of nowhere expects you to have skills that were not taught previously. You're way beyond the scope of the original discussion. Someone suggested people would drop out of CS due to the grief factor of - for example - breakage due to missing semicolons. Another person then suggests that maybe it's a good idea that CS majors have some experience programming before they enter the program. Note: some experience - no one said you need to have built a "real-world" team project before going into a CS program. Then all hell breaks loose because, apparently, getting online and reading a couple tutorials and screwing around in a browser-based programming sandbox (there are tons), is something only wealthy people with college educated parents can do. Sorry, but I don't believe that.
  - verall 9y ago
    > screwing around in a browser-based programming sandbox (there are tons), is something only wealthy people with college educated parents can do Having the free time with access to a computer to "screw around" on and knowledge of the existence of browser sand boxes are absolutely tied to class.
  - dagw 9y ago
    Another person then suggests that maybe it's a good idea that CS majors have some experience programming before they enter the program. Why not offer two tracks? People who have never programmed before have to take a 6 month intro to computers course, that people who know how to program can skip. The people who skip the course can then either use the extra time to take other courses or graduate earlier.
ck425 9y ago
You're also missing the social aspect, particularly for girls. Depending on your personality, friendship groups, culture and Family it's often not socially acceptable to spend your free time as a teenager hacking away at stuff. You forget that those of us who are happy to spend those years in our bedrooms hacking away are weird. If you're a geeky boy you can get away with it, some folk may even encourage it. If you're a girl not so much. The idea that we block off CS as a subject for only those who've taught themselves some programming is absurd and elitist. While we may expect Math students to know Math before Uni, it so happens that 99% of high schools teach the level of Math we expect them to know. In a lot of countries it's compulsory. Same goes with most of the sciences, we expect the level that schools will teach. Unfortunately most schools don't teach programming, and those that do often don't do it well.

watwut 9y ago

> If a kid can't type "how do computers work" in google, they probably won't become a programmer. Are we really wringing our hands over that? If a kid cant type "how human body works" in google, they probably won't become a biologists. Somehow, being constantly surrounded by all those bodies and dogs and grass they did not learned biology. Except that they come to college and do learn. But realistically, "how do computers work" is such a broad question that it does not have to do with anything. It is literally irrelevant question to anything practical. But that is literally this culture I am talking about - the conviction that if you already don't know stuff and was not interested in the past, you are not talented point stop don't even try. Math teachers nor chemistry teachers assume that - if you are curious now are happy with you learning now. > that there are all these secretly good programmers out there who just don't know they're programmers because no one ever told them how to start, They are not secretly good programmers. That takes more then just aptitude. But yeah, a student with good memory and basic math aptitude has genetics for programming. There is nothing special about us. The hardest part of beginner is to figure out what makes sense to learn and what not. > and that they might not even know what programming is because it's so difficult to get started. Well, it is difficult when you don't know what to do and get told you probably don't have aptitude first time you struggle with something. It is easy if you learned from simple concepts, either because you run into right game or because you run into good teacher or book. Exactly like any other learnable skill - math, chemistry, law, physics and so on. > "with hacking and computers in every TV show" That has nothing to do with reality. I see sword fights in many movies too. > "and no one is typing "how does my smartphone/videogame/internet work" and reading the results?" What does that question have to do with building sofware? Like, real world software with real world homework that suddenly out of nowhere expects you to have skills that were not taught previously. What does that question have to do with algorithms? Programming languages? Whether the students would be more attracted to solving problems side or building things side or theory side or software engineering side, your how does videogame works is largely irrelevant. Plus the answer will be high level overview of memory/cpu and such. > Are there other problems keeping people from breaking into the industry? Absolutely. Is "not knowing where to look" one of them? There's no way that it can be, not anymore. You did not suggested a single practical place for beginner to learn stuff. Only few very general question that does not necessary lead to programming - most of them would lead to electronics at best. And such good resources exist, but none of your suggestions lead to them. The "breaking into the industry" is far away from "starting with programming". But then again, that is part of nonsense around this. I know people who found a job with very little knowledge in small company just because they looked confident and hiring manager was inexperienced. Few of them even became good programmers, although they created huge mess on their way there and had to rely at politics a lot. But somehow, a honest student with good results in pretty much everything else is assumed unable to learn the same, because he is less good at pretending.

brandonmenc 9y ago
> What does that question have to do with building sofware? Like, real world software with real world homework that suddenly out of nowhere expects you to have skills that were not taught previously. You're way beyond the scope of the original discussion. Someone suggested people would drop out of CS due to the grief factor of - for example - breakage due to missing semicolons. Another person then suggests that maybe it's a good idea that CS majors have some experience programming before they enter the program. Note: some experience - no one said you need to have built a "real-world" team project before going into a CS program. Then all hell breaks loose because, apparently, getting online and reading a couple tutorials and screwing around in a browser-based programming sandbox (there are tons), is something only wealthy people with college educated parents can do. Sorry, but I don't believe that.
- verall 9y ago
  > screwing around in a browser-based programming sandbox (there are tons), is something only wealthy people with college educated parents can do Having the free time with access to a computer to "screw around" on and knowledge of the existence of browser sand boxes are absolutely tied to class.
- dagw 9y ago
  Another person then suggests that maybe it's a good idea that CS majors have some experience programming before they enter the program. Why not offer two tracks? People who have never programmed before have to take a 6 month intro to computers course, that people who know how to program can skip. The people who skip the course can then either use the extra time to take other courses or graduate earlier.

ck425 9y ago

You're also missing the social aspect, particularly for girls. Depending on your personality, friendship groups, culture and Family it's often not socially acceptable to spend your free time as a teenager hacking away at stuff. You forget that those of us who are happy to spend those years in our bedrooms hacking away are weird. If you're a geeky boy you can get away with it, some folk may even encourage it. If you're a girl not so much. The idea that we block off CS as a subject for only those who've taught themselves some programming is absurd and elitist. While we may expect Math students to know Math before Uni, it so happens that 99% of high schools teach the level of Math we expect them to know. In a lot of countries it's compulsory. Same goes with most of the sciences, we expect the level that schools will teach. Unfortunately most schools don't teach programming, and those that do often don't do it well.