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Then why not start a business that does low-volume runs? I don't see why we should allow the export of all of our industries just to maximize profits for the bu

Then why not start a business that does low-volume runs? I don't see why we should allow the export of all of our industries just to maximize profits for the business owners. Edit: To those who downvoted me, can you please explain why? I'm asking a serious question. There are plenty of small solar production businesses in America at the moment, this idea is totally possible.

toomuchtodo 9y ago
Good question! In this case, the Chinese government is heavily subsidizing their solar industry. The only way for us to compete would be for us to heavily subsidize our own solar industry, but what is the likelihood of that happening? As a business owner, attempting to circumvent a nation state economically is painful.
- simonh 9y ago
  Or we could accept their generous gift of a subsidy for our solar equipment supplies and benefit from increased employment and development in our solar panel consuming sectors. Thanks very much China!
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    Agreed! Let China make the panels, while we use local labor to install them. Protectionism has it places; solar manufacturing is not one of them.
    - falcolas 9y ago
      Solar installation is probably, like most other installation jobs, a race to the bottom with regards to profit. Not to mention that installation is more-or-less a one-time event per house - where do those employees go once you've passed the initial hump? There's much more money (and sustainable jobs) to be had in the creation of the solar cells.
      - pgeorgi 9y ago
        Building houses is a one-time event per lot. Where do those employees go once you've passed the initial hump?
        falcolas 9y ago
        That's why there's a relatively small number of people constantly employed by building houses, and the profit made by individual contractors is relatively small. And with the continued streamlining of the process, fewer and fewer people can get constant employment from the housing industry.
      - toomuchtodo 9y ago
        There are a lot of roofs left in the US to install solar on.
      - Arizhel 9y ago
        Building houses is a "more-or-less one-time event" too by your logic. I don't see the construction industry evaporating any time soon. In addition, as someone else said, there's a LOT of roofs left to install solar on. On top of those factors, these systems will surely need some amount of maintenance and repair; the installation companies can do that too, since they're already experts on that particular hardware. On top of that, solar panels degrade with age, and newer panels are technically superior, so just like people replace cars after using them a certain amount of time, people are going to replace their solar panels eventually (though it may be 25 years), so there's also going to be business in upgrades.
        falcolas 9y ago
        It's not evaporating, but there's not a lot of profit in it for the individual contractors, nor are there a lot of people employed. And as solar installation continues down the "shingling the roof" - there's already an industry in place to take care of that. If we want solar to sustainably employ a lot of people, installation alone is not the way to do it.
tyingq 9y ago
Huh? As a potential buyer of short run, low volume extrusions I should start my own aluminum processing plant?
- mikeash 9y ago
  Of course. On HN, every problem you encounter is a market opportunity, and someone who has ever encountered a particular problem should immediately drop what they're doing and start a business to take advantage of it.
  - freehunter 9y ago
    And then you're going to run into some red-tape, which means you should drop your aluminium business to create a SaaS startup that disrupts government bureaucracy for people starting manufacturing plants. And then you run into some inefficiency with your framework, so you drop your SaaS and build a new web framework that helps people more efficiently build SaaS solutions for clearing government bureaucracy when they're trying to start an aluminum smelting business. Alum.js. You guys can have that one for free.
- BrainInAJar 9y ago
  free marketeers are idiots...
  - dang 9y ago
    Would you please stop posting uncivil and/or unsubstantive comments to HN? You've done a lot of this, and we eventually ban such accounts.
gutnor 9y ago
Why don't you do it yourself, you already have 1 person interested which is a much better position than parent. Being ready to buy something is orthogonal to being capable to create a business selling it. Not everything has a low hanging scratch your own itch as in open source software development (and even there)
jplayer01 9y ago
Seems like a terrible idea to me to base your new business on tariffs that might not survive beyond the next administration. Then you're stuck competing with low price Chinese again.
freehunter 9y ago
This seems to be the stereotypical answer to every problem in the tech world: just do it yourself. If you want it so bad, do it yourself! Want a change to Linux? It's open source, do it yourself! Want better IOT security? Raspberry Pi is cheap, do it yourself! Want low-cost low-volume runs of high quality aluminum? Start your own foundry! Does no one ever see how ridiculous they sound when they say things like that?
- justavoice 9y ago
  You mean,versus sitting and complaining? "Necessity is the Mother of invention" - scratch your own itch, don't lay around and bitch.
falcolas 9y ago
Extruding aluminum (making solar cells, etc.) requires a significant investment up front for the appropriate equipment (can't just be 3D printed or easily milled). Throw in the very real possibility that you will then be immediately undercut by the established players - what's the justification for that initial investment? Sure, it's good for the consumers in the long run (assuming the established players don't just resume their regular playbook once the upstart has been crushed), but who is going to invest money in such a poor risk?
pif 9y ago
> ...just to maximize profits for the business owners Cheaper is not what business owners want. Cheaper is what customers want!
- xbmcuser 9y ago
  Ah no business owners want cheap labour and other cheap inputs. The problem with tariffs on solar is not going to help it is just moving the pain from the manufacturers to resellers and end consumers. Which in the long run would be bad for everyone. The only real way out of this is innovation to bring down costs. All the wars for oil by the US didn't give it energy security it wanted but innovating ways to get oil out of shale cheaply has brought OPEC to its knees.
pgeorgi 9y ago
> To those who downvoted me, can you please explain why? Sure thing. "Then why not start a business that does low-volume runs?" is not helpful. OP is likely in a different business, and starting a resource and capital intense business just to do low volume runs is likely not part of their roadmap for the next 5 years. It's also far from trivial. Put differently: Given how easy you make it sound, where's the "Show HN" about your lifestyle business offering such services?
- sharemywin 9y ago
  99% of the time chasing small fish when everyone else is chasing big fish, your going to starve or barely survive. because of costs to acquire customers. Unless, you happen to be on the cusp of a disruptive technology change.
  - tyingq 9y ago
    This hasn't been my experience. Perhaps the difference is that my end goal is just to live comfortably? I interact with a lot of people that, like me, do well in a niche spot. No aspirations to change the world...just content to be my own boss.
    - sharemywin 9y ago
      I was talking about customer size not markets. Nothing wrong with finding niches. Also, nothing wrong with chasing any customer at first just to get revenue coming in.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]

toomuchtodo 9y ago

Good question! In this case, the Chinese government is heavily subsidizing their solar industry. The only way for us to compete would be for us to heavily subsidize our own solar industry, but what is the likelihood of that happening? As a business owner, attempting to circumvent a nation state economically is painful.

simonh 9y ago
Or we could accept their generous gift of a subsidy for our solar equipment supplies and benefit from increased employment and development in our solar panel consuming sectors. Thanks very much China!
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  Agreed! Let China make the panels, while we use local labor to install them. Protectionism has it places; solar manufacturing is not one of them.
  - falcolas 9y ago
    Solar installation is probably, like most other installation jobs, a race to the bottom with regards to profit. Not to mention that installation is more-or-less a one-time event per house - where do those employees go once you've passed the initial hump? There's much more money (and sustainable jobs) to be had in the creation of the solar cells.
    - pgeorgi 9y ago
      Building houses is a one-time event per lot. Where do those employees go once you've passed the initial hump?
      - falcolas 9y ago
        That's why there's a relatively small number of people constantly employed by building houses, and the profit made by individual contractors is relatively small. And with the continued streamlining of the process, fewer and fewer people can get constant employment from the housing industry.
    - toomuchtodo 9y ago
      There are a lot of roofs left in the US to install solar on.
    - Arizhel 9y ago
      Building houses is a "more-or-less one-time event" too by your logic. I don't see the construction industry evaporating any time soon. In addition, as someone else said, there's a LOT of roofs left to install solar on. On top of those factors, these systems will surely need some amount of maintenance and repair; the installation companies can do that too, since they're already experts on that particular hardware. On top of that, solar panels degrade with age, and newer panels are technically superior, so just like people replace cars after using them a certain amount of time, people are going to replace their solar panels eventually (though it may be 25 years), so there's also going to be business in upgrades.
      - falcolas 9y ago
        It's not evaporating, but there's not a lot of profit in it for the individual contractors, nor are there a lot of people employed. And as solar installation continues down the "shingling the roof" - there's already an industry in place to take care of that. If we want solar to sustainably employ a lot of people, installation alone is not the way to do it.

tyingq 9y ago

Huh? As a potential buyer of short run, low volume extrusions I should start my own aluminum processing plant?

mikeash 9y ago
Of course. On HN, every problem you encounter is a market opportunity, and someone who has ever encountered a particular problem should immediately drop what they're doing and start a business to take advantage of it.
- freehunter 9y ago
  And then you're going to run into some red-tape, which means you should drop your aluminium business to create a SaaS startup that disrupts government bureaucracy for people starting manufacturing plants. And then you run into some inefficiency with your framework, so you drop your SaaS and build a new web framework that helps people more efficiently build SaaS solutions for clearing government bureaucracy when they're trying to start an aluminum smelting business. Alum.js. You guys can have that one for free.
BrainInAJar 9y ago
free marketeers are idiots...
- dang 9y ago
  Would you please stop posting uncivil and/or unsubstantive comments to HN? You've done a lot of this, and we eventually ban such accounts.

gutnor 9y ago

Why don't you do it yourself, you already have 1 person interested which is a much better position than parent. Being ready to buy something is orthogonal to being capable to create a business selling it. Not everything has a low hanging scratch your own itch as in open source software development (and even there)

jplayer01 9y ago

Seems like a terrible idea to me to base your new business on tariffs that might not survive beyond the next administration. Then you're stuck competing with low price Chinese again.

freehunter 9y ago

This seems to be the stereotypical answer to every problem in the tech world: just do it yourself. If you want it so bad, do it yourself! Want a change to Linux? It's open source, do it yourself! Want better IOT security? Raspberry Pi is cheap, do it yourself! Want low-cost low-volume runs of high quality aluminum? Start your own foundry! Does no one ever see how ridiculous they sound when they say things like that?

justavoice 9y ago
You mean,versus sitting and complaining? "Necessity is the Mother of invention" - scratch your own itch, don't lay around and bitch.

falcolas 9y ago

Extruding aluminum (making solar cells, etc.) requires a significant investment up front for the appropriate equipment (can't just be 3D printed or easily milled). Throw in the very real possibility that you will then be immediately undercut by the established players - what's the justification for that initial investment? Sure, it's good for the consumers in the long run (assuming the established players don't just resume their regular playbook once the upstart has been crushed), but who is going to invest money in such a poor risk?

pif 9y ago

> ...just to maximize profits for the business owners Cheaper is not what business owners want. Cheaper is what customers want!

xbmcuser 9y ago
Ah no business owners want cheap labour and other cheap inputs. The problem with tariffs on solar is not going to help it is just moving the pain from the manufacturers to resellers and end consumers. Which in the long run would be bad for everyone. The only real way out of this is innovation to bring down costs. All the wars for oil by the US didn't give it energy security it wanted but innovating ways to get oil out of shale cheaply has brought OPEC to its knees.

pgeorgi 9y ago

> To those who downvoted me, can you please explain why? Sure thing. "Then why not start a business that does low-volume runs?" is not helpful. OP is likely in a different business, and starting a resource and capital intense business just to do low volume runs is likely not part of their roadmap for the next 5 years. It's also far from trivial. Put differently: Given how easy you make it sound, where's the "Show HN" about your lifestyle business offering such services?

sharemywin 9y ago
99% of the time chasing small fish when everyone else is chasing big fish, your going to starve or barely survive. because of costs to acquire customers. Unless, you happen to be on the cusp of a disruptive technology change.
- tyingq 9y ago
  This hasn't been my experience. Perhaps the difference is that my end goal is just to live comfortably? I interact with a lot of people that, like me, do well in a niche spot. No aspirations to change the world...just content to be my own boss.
  - sharemywin 9y ago
    I was talking about customer size not markets. Nothing wrong with finding niches. Also, nothing wrong with chasing any customer at first just to get revenue coming in.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]