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> It also further entrenches the advantages of people who come from affluent backgrounds. If you can afford a video game console, you can afford a raspberry pi

> It also further entrenches the advantages of people who come from affluent backgrounds. If you can afford a video game console, you can afford a raspberry pi (or equivalent.) > We don't expect law students to have been amateur lawyers in high school No, but we expect math majors to have done some math before they get to college. I don't disagree with you that most people can be brought up to speed in less than a year, but it's also not unreasonable to expect first year CS students to have had some programming experience. Computers don't cost thousands of dollars anymore.

Hydraulix989 9y ago
> If you can afford a video game console, you can afford a raspberry pi (or equivalent.) Right. This type of democratization is EXACTLY what allowed me to climb the social ladder out of the rural midwest into a Top 15 university and then Silicon Valley. As a teenager, all I needed to teach myself coding and advanced math was free time and an Internet connection.
Spikeyduy 9y ago
Honestly I think the only prerequisite for a CS major is to have interest in it. I never had any programming classes in high school and I switch my major 3 times until landing on CS. I had never programmed before in my life, but it was interesting to me and I found out I had an affinity towards it. I'm just saying this statement that you need to have some background to it is not necessary.
watwut 9y ago
Math majors are expected to know high school math. You can literally know exactly that and succeed. If you wish to get ahead of competition, you know exactly what to do and exactly what is measured. CS does not have such clarity of expectations. I knew basics, because of journals my father bought. Since I knew basics, the teacher shown me some competitions - from then on I just went with the flow. Had my father not bought those journals or had my teacher not shown me competitions, I would not study cs or had much harder time. If you are a boy, video game console is something that is bought for you often times whether you really want it or not. Raspberry pi is likely not and you don't know it exists. And even if you know it exists, you need computer to upload code to it and then you could have just use that computer to code. I know that it is easy to code when you know where to look, but the biggest hurdle is that many kids dont know where to look. Instead, they are told there is something magical and hard about it. I remember being told that it is hard or that I cant compete because I am (presumably) just learning and other kids "already know a lot". It was bs, but that is where it is for many kids. Seriously, I knew straight A students who were more hardworking then me and had good grades in math (meaning no dummies memorizing stuff) were under impression I have some special brain because I can program. All the myths around cs tend reinforce such nonsense.
- brandonmenc 9y ago
  > Raspberry pi is likely not and you don't know it exists. If a kid can't type "how do computers work" in google, they probably won't become a programmer. Are we really wringing our hands over that? > All the myths around cs tend reinforce such nonsense. There's another bit of nonsense around CS that a lot of people here believe - that there are all these secretly good programmers out there who just don't know they're programmers because no one ever told them how to start, and that they might not even know what programming is because it's so difficult to get started. I find it nearly impossible to believe that there are all these smart people out there, surrounded by technology, with hacking and computers in every TV show, with the President telling them to "learn how to code", Bill Gates' name dropped by rappers, Google in everyones' pocket - and no one is typing "how does my smartphone/videogame/internet work" and reading the results? Like, who is still walking around like, "I got good grades in school and knew people could become doctors, but I didn't know people could make computers go! Why didn't anyone tell me?!" Are there other problems keeping people from breaking into the industry? Absolutely. Is "not knowing where to look" one of them? There's no way that it can be, not anymore.
  - watwut 9y ago
    > If a kid can't type "how do computers work" in google, they probably won't become a programmer. Are we really wringing our hands over that? If a kid cant type "how human body works" in google, they probably won't become a biologists. Somehow, being constantly surrounded by all those bodies and dogs and grass they did not learned biology. Except that they come to college and do learn. But realistically, "how do computers work" is such a broad question that it does not have to do with anything. It is literally irrelevant question to anything practical. But that is literally this culture I am talking about - the conviction that if you already don't know stuff and was not interested in the past, you are not talented point stop don't even try. Math teachers nor chemistry teachers assume that - if you are curious now are happy with you learning now. > that there are all these secretly good programmers out there who just don't know they're programmers because no one ever told them how to start, They are not secretly good programmers. That takes more then just aptitude. But yeah, a student with good memory and basic math aptitude has genetics for programming. There is nothing special about us. The hardest part of beginner is to figure out what makes sense to learn and what not. > and that they might not even know what programming is because it's so difficult to get started. Well, it is difficult when you don't know what to do and get told you probably don't have aptitude first time you struggle with something. It is easy if you learned from simple concepts, either because you run into right game or because you run into good teacher or book. Exactly like any other learnable skill - math, chemistry, law, physics and so on. > "with hacking and computers in every TV show" That has nothing to do with reality. I see sword fights in many movies too. > "and no one is typing "how does my smartphone/videogame/internet work" and reading the results?" What does that question have to do with building sofware? Like, real world software with real world homework that suddenly out of nowhere expects you to have skills that were not taught previously. What does that question have to do with algorithms? Programming languages? Whether the students would be more attracted to solving problems side or building things side or theory side or software engineering side, your how does videogame works is largely irrelevant. Plus the answer will be high level overview of memory/cpu and such. > Are there other problems keeping people from breaking into the industry? Absolutely. Is "not knowing where to look" one of them? There's no way that it can be, not anymore. You did not suggested a single practical place for beginner to learn stuff. Only few very general question that does not necessary lead to programming - most of them would lead to electronics at best. And such good resources exist, but none of your suggestions lead to them. The "breaking into the industry" is far away from "starting with programming". But then again, that is part of nonsense around this. I know people who found a job with very little knowledge in small company just because they looked confident and hiring manager was inexperienced. Few of them even became good programmers, although they created huge mess on their way there and had to rely at politics a lot. But somehow, a honest student with good results in pretty much everything else is assumed unable to learn the same, because he is less good at pretending.
erroneousfunk 9y ago
A video game console has a known and proven entertainment value. The whole family can use it. It's a reason for people to come over to your house. It's a status symbol. Beyond that, I know a lot of poor kids who don't have video game consoles, and there literally isn't $50 in the budget for something that may or may not produce any value (not to mention the monitor, the peripherals, and taking up vast amounts of time on the family computer -- if one exists -- to figure out how to use it). I have extended family living in rural Utah who don't even have a computer -- they use their phones for the Internet. You can debate back and forth about the cost of a phone vs. the cost of a cheap Desktop, but people need phones to function in society, for better or worse. Try figuring out what to do with a bottom tier smartphone, a limited data plan, and a Rasberry Pi that just arrived in the mail. I volunteer at the Boston Museum of Science, working in the Tech Studio/engineering department, often showing off the latest "engineering toys" -- Little Bits, Rasberry pi, Scratch on an iPad that controls a Lego robot... Rich kid parents ask "Oh, where can I get this?" It's not a big deal for them to drop a couple hundred bucks on flavor-of-the-week programming toys. Poor kid parents are often interested and enjoy playing around with it at the Museum, but never ask about getting one themselves. It doesn't even occur to them. Beyond THAT, there are a lot of majors that don't cost a lot of money. You can use the argument "X doesn't cost much to learn -- why haven't you done X before on your own time?" to apply to anyone.
- mysterydip 9y ago
  Sounds like a great opportunity for local libraries to become more relevant (and/or for a nonprofit org to supply them). I know many local libraries supply at least a few computers for internet browsing or whatnot. Why not a pi or two, or pocketCHIPs to loan out?
- brandonmenc 9y ago
  You can always point to someone who can't afford it. That doesn't make me wrong. There are now computers that cost as little as taking the family out to dinner at McDonalds. Probably a hundred million more people (yes, however, not every single person, ok) have the means to learn programming compared to when I was a kid. Acknowledge that, because it's amazing.

Hydraulix989 9y ago

> If you can afford a video game console, you can afford a raspberry pi (or equivalent.) Right. This type of democratization is EXACTLY what allowed me to climb the social ladder out of the rural midwest into a Top 15 university and then Silicon Valley. As a teenager, all I needed to teach myself coding and advanced math was free time and an Internet connection.

Spikeyduy 9y ago

Honestly I think the only prerequisite for a CS major is to have interest in it. I never had any programming classes in high school and I switch my major 3 times until landing on CS. I had never programmed before in my life, but it was interesting to me and I found out I had an affinity towards it. I'm just saying this statement that you need to have some background to it is not necessary.

watwut 9y ago

Math majors are expected to know high school math. You can literally know exactly that and succeed. If you wish to get ahead of competition, you know exactly what to do and exactly what is measured. CS does not have such clarity of expectations. I knew basics, because of journals my father bought. Since I knew basics, the teacher shown me some competitions - from then on I just went with the flow. Had my father not bought those journals or had my teacher not shown me competitions, I would not study cs or had much harder time. If you are a boy, video game console is something that is bought for you often times whether you really want it or not. Raspberry pi is likely not and you don't know it exists. And even if you know it exists, you need computer to upload code to it and then you could have just use that computer to code. I know that it is easy to code when you know where to look, but the biggest hurdle is that many kids dont know where to look. Instead, they are told there is something magical and hard about it. I remember being told that it is hard or that I cant compete because I am (presumably) just learning and other kids "already know a lot". It was bs, but that is where it is for many kids. Seriously, I knew straight A students who were more hardworking then me and had good grades in math (meaning no dummies memorizing stuff) were under impression I have some special brain because I can program. All the myths around cs tend reinforce such nonsense.

brandonmenc 9y ago
> Raspberry pi is likely not and you don't know it exists. If a kid can't type "how do computers work" in google, they probably won't become a programmer. Are we really wringing our hands over that? > All the myths around cs tend reinforce such nonsense. There's another bit of nonsense around CS that a lot of people here believe - that there are all these secretly good programmers out there who just don't know they're programmers because no one ever told them how to start, and that they might not even know what programming is because it's so difficult to get started. I find it nearly impossible to believe that there are all these smart people out there, surrounded by technology, with hacking and computers in every TV show, with the President telling them to "learn how to code", Bill Gates' name dropped by rappers, Google in everyones' pocket - and no one is typing "how does my smartphone/videogame/internet work" and reading the results? Like, who is still walking around like, "I got good grades in school and knew people could become doctors, but I didn't know people could make computers go! Why didn't anyone tell me?!" Are there other problems keeping people from breaking into the industry? Absolutely. Is "not knowing where to look" one of them? There's no way that it can be, not anymore.
- watwut 9y ago
  > If a kid can't type "how do computers work" in google, they probably won't become a programmer. Are we really wringing our hands over that? If a kid cant type "how human body works" in google, they probably won't become a biologists. Somehow, being constantly surrounded by all those bodies and dogs and grass they did not learned biology. Except that they come to college and do learn. But realistically, "how do computers work" is such a broad question that it does not have to do with anything. It is literally irrelevant question to anything practical. But that is literally this culture I am talking about - the conviction that if you already don't know stuff and was not interested in the past, you are not talented point stop don't even try. Math teachers nor chemistry teachers assume that - if you are curious now are happy with you learning now. > that there are all these secretly good programmers out there who just don't know they're programmers because no one ever told them how to start, They are not secretly good programmers. That takes more then just aptitude. But yeah, a student with good memory and basic math aptitude has genetics for programming. There is nothing special about us. The hardest part of beginner is to figure out what makes sense to learn and what not. > and that they might not even know what programming is because it's so difficult to get started. Well, it is difficult when you don't know what to do and get told you probably don't have aptitude first time you struggle with something. It is easy if you learned from simple concepts, either because you run into right game or because you run into good teacher or book. Exactly like any other learnable skill - math, chemistry, law, physics and so on. > "with hacking and computers in every TV show" That has nothing to do with reality. I see sword fights in many movies too. > "and no one is typing "how does my smartphone/videogame/internet work" and reading the results?" What does that question have to do with building sofware? Like, real world software with real world homework that suddenly out of nowhere expects you to have skills that were not taught previously. What does that question have to do with algorithms? Programming languages? Whether the students would be more attracted to solving problems side or building things side or theory side or software engineering side, your how does videogame works is largely irrelevant. Plus the answer will be high level overview of memory/cpu and such. > Are there other problems keeping people from breaking into the industry? Absolutely. Is "not knowing where to look" one of them? There's no way that it can be, not anymore. You did not suggested a single practical place for beginner to learn stuff. Only few very general question that does not necessary lead to programming - most of them would lead to electronics at best. And such good resources exist, but none of your suggestions lead to them. The "breaking into the industry" is far away from "starting with programming". But then again, that is part of nonsense around this. I know people who found a job with very little knowledge in small company just because they looked confident and hiring manager was inexperienced. Few of them even became good programmers, although they created huge mess on their way there and had to rely at politics a lot. But somehow, a honest student with good results in pretty much everything else is assumed unable to learn the same, because he is less good at pretending.

erroneousfunk 9y ago

A video game console has a known and proven entertainment value. The whole family can use it. It's a reason for people to come over to your house. It's a status symbol. Beyond that, I know a lot of poor kids who don't have video game consoles, and there literally isn't $50 in the budget for something that may or may not produce any value (not to mention the monitor, the peripherals, and taking up vast amounts of time on the family computer -- if one exists -- to figure out how to use it). I have extended family living in rural Utah who don't even have a computer -- they use their phones for the Internet. You can debate back and forth about the cost of a phone vs. the cost of a cheap Desktop, but people need phones to function in society, for better or worse. Try figuring out what to do with a bottom tier smartphone, a limited data plan, and a Rasberry Pi that just arrived in the mail. I volunteer at the Boston Museum of Science, working in the Tech Studio/engineering department, often showing off the latest "engineering toys" -- Little Bits, Rasberry pi, Scratch on an iPad that controls a Lego robot... Rich kid parents ask "Oh, where can I get this?" It's not a big deal for them to drop a couple hundred bucks on flavor-of-the-week programming toys. Poor kid parents are often interested and enjoy playing around with it at the Museum, but never ask about getting one themselves. It doesn't even occur to them. Beyond THAT, there are a lot of majors that don't cost a lot of money. You can use the argument "X doesn't cost much to learn -- why haven't you done X before on your own time?" to apply to anyone.

mysterydip 9y ago
Sounds like a great opportunity for local libraries to become more relevant (and/or for a nonprofit org to supply them). I know many local libraries supply at least a few computers for internet browsing or whatnot. Why not a pi or two, or pocketCHIPs to loan out?
brandonmenc 9y ago
You can always point to someone who can't afford it. That doesn't make me wrong. There are now computers that cost as little as taking the family out to dinner at McDonalds. Probably a hundred million more people (yes, however, not every single person, ok) have the means to learn programming compared to when I was a kid. Acknowledge that, because it's amazing.