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> The number of grads for difficult degrees and the quality of grads seems to be another story. This is why I never believed the "There is no STEM shortage" st

> The number of grads for difficult degrees and the quality of grads seems to be another story. This is why I never believed the "There is no STEM shortage" stories. They were mostly based on the assumption that all STEM grads were qualified to work in STEM. That's not true in any field where you can complete a degree with a C or D average. I find it unfortunate that some of the larger software companies filter out applicants based on the school they graduated from, but I understand it. The companies have to have some sort of filtering mechanism, because many colleges clearly do not.

kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
There is no STEM shortage because salaries haven't risen for those already working in the field.
- twblalock 9y ago
  They certainly have risen in tech, the T part of STEM.
  - kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
    NYC and SF are small islands compared to the rest of the country. Salaries are flat for everyone else.
    - twblalock 9y ago
      > NYC and SF are small islands compared to the rest of the country. Not in terms of tech jobs.
      - sidlls 9y ago
        Yes, even in terms of tech jobs. Software just isn't as big a deal outside of these places.
        sbov 9y ago
        I think the point is a huge number of tech jobs are within these locations. The SF bay area has something stupid like the top 3 cities when it comes to tech jobs. Throw out all the locations with the most jobs and surprise, salaries suck.
        sidlls 9y ago
        Well, I wouldn't say salaries "suck" outside of well-known tech centers like SF/Bay Area and NYC. They aren't great, though. Even in the Bay Area, at least, the salaries of engineers still pale in comparison to the salaries of managers and executives.
        kelnos 9y ago
        > Even in the Bay Area, at least, the salaries of engineers still pale in comparison to the salaries of managers and executives. Depends on where you work. If you work at an actual technology company that "gets it", they'll have parallel management and individual contributor tracks where you can make as much as a director-level person as an IC, or more.
        sidlls 9y ago
        Emphasis on "can make" is due in this case. It's still a different dynamic with respect to status and a different pay scale in general (that is to say, exceptions of course exist).
        fivestar 9y ago
        But you will never likely be financially stable due to your housing situation.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        fivestar 9y ago
        Maybe not suck as compared to a lot of jobs, but the problem with software development seems to be that salary growth rises rapidly up to a plateau and then basically stops. The opportunities for salary growth past a certain point require risk-taking such as starting a company, consulting in some very specific niche, or what have you. It's still better than the lack of wage growth in other fields, I'm sure, it's just not something that was explained to me AT ALL when I started down this long road many years ago.
    - wolfgke 9y ago
      > NYC and SF are small islands compared to the rest of the country. "Salary" is the wrong metric to consider. The "interesting" metric is "salary minus cost of living". And this is stagnating even in NYC and SF, since the costs of living are rising.
FLUX-YOU 9y ago
>The companies have to have some sort of filtering mechanism There's no one to hold companies accountable for having a unjustifiably high or low filter. And frankly I don't think anyone outside of CS has gotten those filters right any more than CS has. An incorrect filter turns into "Well, there's no one qualified to work for us" or "Well, all of these candidates failed to do the job" which leads to incorrect assumptions about the labor pool, which is what's going to bias your hiring decisions. There are companies out there hiring for A+ students that would be just as well off with a C or D average student because what the company is doing day-to-day is too far from what university was like.
- poikniok 9y ago
  Well this is why a free market is great, if you think all these companies are doing things wrong, start your own and outcompete them.
  - FLUX-YOU 9y ago
    Feel free to write me a check for the millions of seed money I'll need.
    - pkaye 9y ago
      Bootstrap!
      - noobermin 9y ago
        Poiknoik quite literally used the "bootstrap" argument in a non-ironic way to describe an actually real systemic problem .
    - arjie 9y ago
      Do you actually need millions for a software consultancy? You're hiring people who wouldn't be employed elsewhere. You could pay them less and cut prices to your clients and everyone would come out better. I mean you've spotted what you claim is a clear inefficiency. Your guys could be taking the jobs that Infosys and gang are taking.
smichel17 9y ago
> This is why I never believed the "There is no STEM shortage" stories. They were mostly based on the assumption that all STEM grads were qualified to work in STEM. That's not true in any field where you can complete a degree with a C or D average. This is true IFF we assume that gpa accurately reflects qualification to work in industry.
- slededit 9y ago
  There is a difference between getting a C or D average because you don't care about school, and getting that because you can't do any better. Unfortunately the two are hard to separate, and even if the grad didn't care about school - it doesn't mean they will care about work. I was in the boat of not caring about school (although I did get a B) and it worked out - but anyone following that path should understand its an up hill climb.
Bakary 9y ago
At the risk of sounding foolish, but isn't it easy for a company to filter out applicants in technical fields, simply by asking technical questions?
- 35bge57dtjku 9y ago
  Yes, and that's what they've done at every programming job I've ever had.
- flukus 9y ago
  Now there is a mini industry around getting people over that very low bar. FizzBuzz was a temporary patch, now we need a real fix.
- pkulak 9y ago
  But that takes the engineers you already have and puts them in interviews instead of engineering.

kevin_thibedeau 9y ago

There is no STEM shortage because salaries haven't risen for those already working in the field.

twblalock 9y ago
They certainly have risen in tech, the T part of STEM.
- kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
  NYC and SF are small islands compared to the rest of the country. Salaries are flat for everyone else.
  - twblalock 9y ago
    > NYC and SF are small islands compared to the rest of the country. Not in terms of tech jobs.
    - sidlls 9y ago
      Yes, even in terms of tech jobs. Software just isn't as big a deal outside of these places.
      - sbov 9y ago
        I think the point is a huge number of tech jobs are within these locations. The SF bay area has something stupid like the top 3 cities when it comes to tech jobs. Throw out all the locations with the most jobs and surprise, salaries suck.
        sidlls 9y ago
        Well, I wouldn't say salaries "suck" outside of well-known tech centers like SF/Bay Area and NYC. They aren't great, though. Even in the Bay Area, at least, the salaries of engineers still pale in comparison to the salaries of managers and executives.
        kelnos 9y ago
        > Even in the Bay Area, at least, the salaries of engineers still pale in comparison to the salaries of managers and executives. Depends on where you work. If you work at an actual technology company that "gets it", they'll have parallel management and individual contributor tracks where you can make as much as a director-level person as an IC, or more.
        sidlls 9y ago
        Emphasis on "can make" is due in this case. It's still a different dynamic with respect to status and a different pay scale in general (that is to say, exceptions of course exist).
        fivestar 9y ago
        But you will never likely be financially stable due to your housing situation.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        fivestar 9y ago
        Maybe not suck as compared to a lot of jobs, but the problem with software development seems to be that salary growth rises rapidly up to a plateau and then basically stops. The opportunities for salary growth past a certain point require risk-taking such as starting a company, consulting in some very specific niche, or what have you. It's still better than the lack of wage growth in other fields, I'm sure, it's just not something that was explained to me AT ALL when I started down this long road many years ago.
  - wolfgke 9y ago
    > NYC and SF are small islands compared to the rest of the country. "Salary" is the wrong metric to consider. The "interesting" metric is "salary minus cost of living". And this is stagnating even in NYC and SF, since the costs of living are rising.

FLUX-YOU 9y ago

>The companies have to have some sort of filtering mechanism There's no one to hold companies accountable for having a unjustifiably high or low filter. And frankly I don't think anyone outside of CS has gotten those filters right any more than CS has. An incorrect filter turns into "Well, there's no one qualified to work for us" or "Well, all of these candidates failed to do the job" which leads to incorrect assumptions about the labor pool, which is what's going to bias your hiring decisions. There are companies out there hiring for A+ students that would be just as well off with a C or D average student because what the company is doing day-to-day is too far from what university was like.

poikniok 9y ago
Well this is why a free market is great, if you think all these companies are doing things wrong, start your own and outcompete them.
- FLUX-YOU 9y ago
  Feel free to write me a check for the millions of seed money I'll need.
  - pkaye 9y ago
    Bootstrap!
    - noobermin 9y ago
      Poiknoik quite literally used the "bootstrap" argument in a non-ironic way to describe an actually real systemic problem .
  - arjie 9y ago
    Do you actually need millions for a software consultancy? You're hiring people who wouldn't be employed elsewhere. You could pay them less and cut prices to your clients and everyone would come out better. I mean you've spotted what you claim is a clear inefficiency. Your guys could be taking the jobs that Infosys and gang are taking.

smichel17 9y ago

> This is why I never believed the "There is no STEM shortage" stories. They were mostly based on the assumption that all STEM grads were qualified to work in STEM. That's not true in any field where you can complete a degree with a C or D average. This is true IFF we assume that gpa accurately reflects qualification to work in industry.

slededit 9y ago
There is a difference between getting a C or D average because you don't care about school, and getting that because you can't do any better. Unfortunately the two are hard to separate, and even if the grad didn't care about school - it doesn't mean they will care about work. I was in the boat of not caring about school (although I did get a B) and it worked out - but anyone following that path should understand its an up hill climb.

Bakary 9y ago

At the risk of sounding foolish, but isn't it easy for a company to filter out applicants in technical fields, simply by asking technical questions?

35bge57dtjku 9y ago
Yes, and that's what they've done at every programming job I've ever had.
flukus 9y ago
Now there is a mini industry around getting people over that very low bar. FizzBuzz was a temporary patch, now we need a real fix.
pkulak 9y ago
But that takes the engineers you already have and puts them in interviews instead of engineering.