8 ms·

The top level comment states, "Software is about the only career I can think of where there are movements created to inject social status into it so that people

by kxyvr 9y ago

The top level comment states, "Software is about the only career I can think of where there are movements created to inject social status into it so that people get into it who are only interested so long as it comes with social status/trendiness." I came to say that this is factually incorrect. Now, my experience does come from STEM, so I don't know about non-STEM fields. However, to be clear, I was responding to this comment and the following one that supports the assertion that software is special with respect to outreach programs. Certainly, I apologize if there's any confusion.

david-cako 9y ago
Top level, My statement is unclear, but the "udacity/anyone can be a computer whiz!" "koding with karlie" vibe that is pushed is very different than anything else in the world. Software is unique in that it IS something that anyone with the minimum amount of the right talents can learn to do well on their own -- that's just the nature of the internet and how software is distributed/documented. It ISN'T, however, something that just anyone will be good at. Not everyone is suited for the type of information gathering and thinking that it requires. I would never delude myself into believing that I have the correct talents to be an accountant, a lawyer, or an artist. Why is this type of attitude normal in software? It obviously makes business sense for companies like udacity to sell the idea that it's easy to gain a textbook understanding of it, but the culture surrounding it tries to take it much further than that. Companies are expected to force their demographics instead of sharpie-ing over the names on every job application and just choosing whoever the fuck is most qualified for the job. If the interviewer is legitimately sexist or racist, you have some much deeper set problems that aren't going to be solved by ordering them to hire certain demographics. You could even argue that women have an upper hand by being scarce! And then you have bullshit evidence like "companies that hire diversely are more successful", when in reality this is a classic correlation/causation fallacy where the largest and most successful companies can afford the extra hiring hours and turnover of hiring the wrong candidates.
- romanovcode 9y ago
  > Why is this type of attitude normal in software? I think people greatly underestimate what software developers actually do. To most of non-computer related folk we are just monkeys who bash keystrokes. I'm not saying we do some rocket science, however in this profession a lot of online research is required to even do a simple things, and to most of people it is annoying to do so they give up. I'm full-stack developer for about 10 years but still have to google MSSQL connection string or how to center stuff vertically in css.
  - kgwgk 9y ago
    > in this profession a lot of online research is required to even do a simple things Or you could look at the documentation. People did simple and complex things with computers for decades before google existed.
- trowawee 9y ago
  Well, "artist" is a little farther away than the other two, but I would submit that most of the people who have what it takes to be a median accountant or lawyer probably also has what it takes to be a median programmer. For all the discussion of how we "think differently", I honestly don't think there's that much separation. Maybe when you get to the higher levels, but that separation is as much within the profession as between professions. There are programmers who have whatever the wiring is that makes them want to sit down in their free time and write a new kernel, and there are programmers who are reasonably content cranking out Wordpress installs on a 9-5 schedule. And for what it's worth, I suspect that if most people were willing to put in the time and effort to learn how to create art, you'd find that many more people can create reasonable art than you would otherwise believe, because we've talked ourselves into a model of artistic talent that seems to hold that it's a binary switch, rather than something like any other skillset, where some people are more talented, but where almost anyone can develop some ability in it if they put in time and effort. I'm not a naturally talented basketball player, but I can run and play defense and hit a reasonable jumper in a pickup game, because I've spent a lot of time over several years learning how to play and then playing a bunch of games.
- kxyvr 9y ago
  Candidly, there are plenty of people who delude themselves that they are well suited to being a doctor or lawyer. That said, they're prestige positions, so there are cultural reasons for doing so. On the STEM front, a quick search immediately pulls organizations like National Girls Collaborative Project: http://ngcproject.org/ http://ngcproject.org/ Girl Scouts: https://www.girlscouts.org/en/about-girl-scouts/girl-scouts-and-stem.html https://www.girlscouts.org/en/about-girl-scouts/girl-scouts-... Girlstart: http://www.girlstart.org/ http://www.girlstart.org/ and Girls Inc.: http://www.girlsinc.org/news/editorials/inspiring-girls-explore-stem-girls-inc-celebrates-engineers-week.html http://www.girlsinc.org/news/editorials/inspiring-girls-expl... that provide either focus or programs for outreach in STEM more broadly than computer science. Now, I don't know the exact numbers for whether programs for pushing for women in CS are greater in number than STEM. That would be interesting to know precisely. Mostly, my contention is that, yes, there are organizations that are attempting to encourage young women to entering STEM fields beyond software. Now, at a city level where I live, I have noticed anecdotally that there's been a push for software based businesses from the local government. Though it's difficult to know for sure, my opinion of this push toward software as opposed to engineering is because the apparent investment in creating a new software company is lower than the investment in creating an engineering company. Engineering tends to be a more regulated field and often requires more expensive equipment. As such, I believe the city is interested in businesses that could have a large economic impact for a relatively low amount of investment. Now, is this so easy? No and I believe my city government's actions are somewhat misguided. That said, I doubt that where I live is unique. I do believe there's a national push for software based businesses because the apparent investment is low and the payoff is high. Along with that will be programs to encourage underrepresented people to enter the field and these programs will be visible. But, again, I contend they're not unique.

by kxyvr 9y ago

david-cako 9y ago

Top level, My statement is unclear, but the "udacity/anyone can be a computer whiz!" "koding with karlie" vibe that is pushed is very different than anything else in the world. Software is unique in that it IS something that anyone with the minimum amount of the right talents can learn to do well on their own -- that's just the nature of the internet and how software is distributed/documented. It ISN'T, however, something that just anyone will be good at. Not everyone is suited for the type of information gathering and thinking that it requires. I would never delude myself into believing that I have the correct talents to be an accountant, a lawyer, or an artist. Why is this type of attitude normal in software? It obviously makes business sense for companies like udacity to sell the idea that it's easy to gain a textbook understanding of it, but the culture surrounding it tries to take it much further than that. Companies are expected to force their demographics instead of sharpie-ing over the names on every job application and just choosing whoever the fuck is most qualified for the job. If the interviewer is legitimately sexist or racist, you have some much deeper set problems that aren't going to be solved by ordering them to hire certain demographics. You could even argue that women have an upper hand by being scarce! And then you have bullshit evidence like "companies that hire diversely are more successful", when in reality this is a classic correlation/causation fallacy where the largest and most successful companies can afford the extra hiring hours and turnover of hiring the wrong candidates.

romanovcode 9y ago
> Why is this type of attitude normal in software? I think people greatly underestimate what software developers actually do. To most of non-computer related folk we are just monkeys who bash keystrokes. I'm not saying we do some rocket science, however in this profession a lot of online research is required to even do a simple things, and to most of people it is annoying to do so they give up. I'm full-stack developer for about 10 years but still have to google MSSQL connection string or how to center stuff vertically in css.
- kgwgk 9y ago
  > in this profession a lot of online research is required to even do a simple things Or you could look at the documentation. People did simple and complex things with computers for decades before google existed.
trowawee 9y ago
Well, "artist" is a little farther away than the other two, but I would submit that most of the people who have what it takes to be a median accountant or lawyer probably also has what it takes to be a median programmer. For all the discussion of how we "think differently", I honestly don't think there's that much separation. Maybe when you get to the higher levels, but that separation is as much within the profession as between professions. There are programmers who have whatever the wiring is that makes them want to sit down in their free time and write a new kernel, and there are programmers who are reasonably content cranking out Wordpress installs on a 9-5 schedule. And for what it's worth, I suspect that if most people were willing to put in the time and effort to learn how to create art, you'd find that many more people can create reasonable art than you would otherwise believe, because we've talked ourselves into a model of artistic talent that seems to hold that it's a binary switch, rather than something like any other skillset, where some people are more talented, but where almost anyone can develop some ability in it if they put in time and effort. I'm not a naturally talented basketball player, but I can run and play defense and hit a reasonable jumper in a pickup game, because I've spent a lot of time over several years learning how to play and then playing a bunch of games.
kxyvr 9y ago
Candidly, there are plenty of people who delude themselves that they are well suited to being a doctor or lawyer. That said, they're prestige positions, so there are cultural reasons for doing so. On the STEM front, a quick search immediately pulls organizations like National Girls Collaborative Project: http://ngcproject.org/ http://ngcproject.org/ Girl Scouts: https://www.girlscouts.org/en/about-girl-scouts/girl-scouts-and-stem.html https://www.girlscouts.org/en/about-girl-scouts/girl-scouts-... Girlstart: http://www.girlstart.org/ http://www.girlstart.org/ and Girls Inc.: http://www.girlsinc.org/news/editorials/inspiring-girls-explore-stem-girls-inc-celebrates-engineers-week.html http://www.girlsinc.org/news/editorials/inspiring-girls-expl... that provide either focus or programs for outreach in STEM more broadly than computer science. Now, I don't know the exact numbers for whether programs for pushing for women in CS are greater in number than STEM. That would be interesting to know precisely. Mostly, my contention is that, yes, there are organizations that are attempting to encourage young women to entering STEM fields beyond software. Now, at a city level where I live, I have noticed anecdotally that there's been a push for software based businesses from the local government. Though it's difficult to know for sure, my opinion of this push toward software as opposed to engineering is because the apparent investment in creating a new software company is lower than the investment in creating an engineering company. Engineering tends to be a more regulated field and often requires more expensive equipment. As such, I believe the city is interested in businesses that could have a large economic impact for a relatively low amount of investment. Now, is this so easy? No and I believe my city government's actions are somewhat misguided. That said, I doubt that where I live is unique. I do believe there's a national push for software based businesses because the apparent investment is low and the payoff is high. Along with that will be programs to encourage underrepresented people to enter the field and these programs will be visible. But, again, I contend they're not unique.