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This is factually incorrect. Many years ago, I was involved in underrepresented minority outreach programs at a variety of institutions. Computer science was

by kxyvr 9y ago

This is factually incorrect. Many years ago, I was involved in underrepresented minority outreach programs at a variety of institutions. Computer science was one of many fields, which we focused. Though, to be clear, the programs that I was involved in were all STEM centered. Also, to be clear, the word underrepresented is important here. Asians are a racial minority in the United States, but not underrepresented in STEM fields, so they do not receive the same kind of focus. Alternatively, women are not underrepresented in all STEM fields, so the attention per field varies. As a corollary to this, good programs tend to look at the number of underrepresented people at the undergraudate, graduate, and faculty levels and tend to make different decisions depending on where the need is. Generally, representation is not uniform across each of those categories. Now, this is not to contend whether these programs are good or bad. I have my own opinions. However, I will strongly say that the contention that computer science is unique in this regard is factually incorrect. Programs exist across a broad selection of fields.

djsumdog 9y ago
But that's what the parent comment was saying. It wasn't talking about CS vs the rest of STEM fields. It was engineering/sciences vs blue collar work: coal mines, oil rigs, plumbing, etc.
- kxyvr 9y ago
  The top level comment states, "Software is about the only career I can think of where there are movements created to inject social status into it so that people get into it who are only interested so long as it comes with social status/trendiness." I came to say that this is factually incorrect. Now, my experience does come from STEM, so I don't know about non-STEM fields. However, to be clear, I was responding to this comment and the following one that supports the assertion that software is special with respect to outreach programs. Certainly, I apologize if there's any confusion.
  - david-cako 9y ago
    Top level, My statement is unclear, but the "udacity/anyone can be a computer whiz!" "koding with karlie" vibe that is pushed is very different than anything else in the world. Software is unique in that it IS something that anyone with the minimum amount of the right talents can learn to do well on their own -- that's just the nature of the internet and how software is distributed/documented. It ISN'T, however, something that just anyone will be good at. Not everyone is suited for the type of information gathering and thinking that it requires. I would never delude myself into believing that I have the correct talents to be an accountant, a lawyer, or an artist. Why is this type of attitude normal in software? It obviously makes business sense for companies like udacity to sell the idea that it's easy to gain a textbook understanding of it, but the culture surrounding it tries to take it much further than that. Companies are expected to force their demographics instead of sharpie-ing over the names on every job application and just choosing whoever the fuck is most qualified for the job. If the interviewer is legitimately sexist or racist, you have some much deeper set problems that aren't going to be solved by ordering them to hire certain demographics. You could even argue that women have an upper hand by being scarce! And then you have bullshit evidence like "companies that hire diversely are more successful", when in reality this is a classic correlation/causation fallacy where the largest and most successful companies can afford the extra hiring hours and turnover of hiring the wrong candidates.
    - romanovcode 9y ago
      > Why is this type of attitude normal in software? I think people greatly underestimate what software developers actually do. To most of non-computer related folk we are just monkeys who bash keystrokes. I'm not saying we do some rocket science, however in this profession a lot of online research is required to even do a simple things, and to most of people it is annoying to do so they give up. I'm full-stack developer for about 10 years but still have to google MSSQL connection string or how to center stuff vertically in css.
      - kgwgk 9y ago
        > in this profession a lot of online research is required to even do a simple things Or you could look at the documentation. People did simple and complex things with computers for decades before google existed.

by kxyvr 9y ago

djsumdog 9y ago

But that's what the parent comment was saying. It wasn't talking about CS vs the rest of STEM fields. It was engineering/sciences vs blue collar work: coal mines, oil rigs, plumbing, etc.

kxyvr 9y ago
The top level comment states, "Software is about the only career I can think of where there are movements created to inject social status into it so that people get into it who are only interested so long as it comes with social status/trendiness." I came to say that this is factually incorrect. Now, my experience does come from STEM, so I don't know about non-STEM fields. However, to be clear, I was responding to this comment and the following one that supports the assertion that software is special with respect to outreach programs. Certainly, I apologize if there's any confusion.
- david-cako 9y ago
  Top level, My statement is unclear, but the "udacity/anyone can be a computer whiz!" "koding with karlie" vibe that is pushed is very different than anything else in the world. Software is unique in that it IS something that anyone with the minimum amount of the right talents can learn to do well on their own -- that's just the nature of the internet and how software is distributed/documented. It ISN'T, however, something that just anyone will be good at. Not everyone is suited for the type of information gathering and thinking that it requires. I would never delude myself into believing that I have the correct talents to be an accountant, a lawyer, or an artist. Why is this type of attitude normal in software? It obviously makes business sense for companies like udacity to sell the idea that it's easy to gain a textbook understanding of it, but the culture surrounding it tries to take it much further than that. Companies are expected to force their demographics instead of sharpie-ing over the names on every job application and just choosing whoever the fuck is most qualified for the job. If the interviewer is legitimately sexist or racist, you have some much deeper set problems that aren't going to be solved by ordering them to hire certain demographics. You could even argue that women have an upper hand by being scarce! And then you have bullshit evidence like "companies that hire diversely are more successful", when in reality this is a classic correlation/causation fallacy where the largest and most successful companies can afford the extra hiring hours and turnover of hiring the wrong candidates.
  - romanovcode 9y ago
    > Why is this type of attitude normal in software? I think people greatly underestimate what software developers actually do. To most of non-computer related folk we are just monkeys who bash keystrokes. I'm not saying we do some rocket science, however in this profession a lot of online research is required to even do a simple things, and to most of people it is annoying to do so they give up. I'm full-stack developer for about 10 years but still have to google MSSQL connection string or how to center stuff vertically in css.
    - kgwgk 9y ago
      > in this profession a lot of online research is required to even do a simple things Or you could look at the documentation. People did simple and complex things with computers for decades before google existed.