5 ms·

I think it is also the only career which people try to inject diversity just for the sake of it. Maybe I just live in developer bubble and don't know any bette

I think it is also the only career which people try to inject diversity just for the sake of it. Maybe I just live in developer bubble and don't know any better, but I've never seen a movement like "Girls do Plumbing!", "Black girls construction bootcamp" or "Mining for equality!".

sidlls 9y ago
> Maybe I just live in developer bubble and don't know any better, Yes, that's quite likely. Diversity is important in this field, as in any other, for a number of reasons. The two most important are that is the brings diversity of thought, which should always be welcome in a supposedly fact-based intellectual field, and that it is a signal that we as a society value ourselves and our peers well enough to not treat anybody as second class citizens.
- ArialAnemone 9y ago
  But you're not promoting "diversity of thought", you're promoting BS signals. How is it promoting facts when you're searching for superficial signs of diversity? You're promoting a form of corporate doublethink where filling out bubbles of sex and race is automatically analogous with some platonic ideal where every single variant of human being had this amazing differential that'd waiting to be exploited. But instead it seems a very cynical game where the superficiality of diversity conquers honest evaluation of needs and ability.
  - sidlls 9y ago
    You're making many assumptions that really aren't justified.
    - ArialAnemone 9y ago
      How are they not justified? A cynical understanding of human nature and society serves a person far better than the opposite. People want to do less work than more work. For people involved in acquiring, placing, and managing human resources, an easy way to signal "work"/"useful work" is by parroting the line of superficial diversity. That's my experience at least. I win far more bets by assuming the worst of intentions than the best in these hiring games. In the military you see a big push for "diversity", especially in relation to sex, where all sorts of carrots are trotted out just to have a platonic makeup of sees in the armed forces. Nevermind that one of those sexes has an ace in the hole called "pregnancy" which the mil. Bureaucracy will bend to accommodate. Nevermind the disastrous effects on morale and confidence in command this brings to some poor bastard from Nebraska who goes through all sorts of shit. If he gets a girlfriend, or God forbid a wife, he faces the risk of absolute cuckery on that side. If he messes around with whores and the command is looking for a scapegoat, they'll bring him up for ucmj charges. Meanwhile if his girlfriend/wife messes around with boys on the base, she has no repercussion for her actions. "Wait, what about the pregnant female soldiers?" Easy office job and easy promotion because higher-ups would rather have eye candy over a more disposable resource (competent males). What gets me is the total denial of this facet of human nature by those who push "diversity".
      - sidlls 9y ago
        I invite you to re-read this comment after you've had time to reflect. So much about it is representative of exactly the sort of casual sexism that runs rampant in this industry. From the assumptions about "human nature" to the straw-man "diversity" you describe, even.
kxyvr 9y ago
This is factually incorrect. Many years ago, I was involved in underrepresented minority outreach programs at a variety of institutions. Computer science was one of many fields, which we focused. Though, to be clear, the programs that I was involved in were all STEM centered. Also, to be clear, the word underrepresented is important here. Asians are a racial minority in the United States, but not underrepresented in STEM fields, so they do not receive the same kind of focus. Alternatively, women are not underrepresented in all STEM fields, so the attention per field varies. As a corollary to this, good programs tend to look at the number of underrepresented people at the undergraudate, graduate, and faculty levels and tend to make different decisions depending on where the need is. Generally, representation is not uniform across each of those categories. Now, this is not to contend whether these programs are good or bad. I have my own opinions. However, I will strongly say that the contention that computer science is unique in this regard is factually incorrect. Programs exist across a broad selection of fields.
- djsumdog 9y ago
  But that's what the parent comment was saying. It wasn't talking about CS vs the rest of STEM fields. It was engineering/sciences vs blue collar work: coal mines, oil rigs, plumbing, etc.
  - kxyvr 9y ago
    The top level comment states, "Software is about the only career I can think of where there are movements created to inject social status into it so that people get into it who are only interested so long as it comes with social status/trendiness." I came to say that this is factually incorrect. Now, my experience does come from STEM, so I don't know about non-STEM fields. However, to be clear, I was responding to this comment and the following one that supports the assertion that software is special with respect to outreach programs. Certainly, I apologize if there's any confusion.
    - david-cako 9y ago
      Top level, My statement is unclear, but the "udacity/anyone can be a computer whiz!" "koding with karlie" vibe that is pushed is very different than anything else in the world. Software is unique in that it IS something that anyone with the minimum amount of the right talents can learn to do well on their own -- that's just the nature of the internet and how software is distributed/documented. It ISN'T, however, something that just anyone will be good at. Not everyone is suited for the type of information gathering and thinking that it requires. I would never delude myself into believing that I have the correct talents to be an accountant, a lawyer, or an artist. Why is this type of attitude normal in software? It obviously makes business sense for companies like udacity to sell the idea that it's easy to gain a textbook understanding of it, but the culture surrounding it tries to take it much further than that. Companies are expected to force their demographics instead of sharpie-ing over the names on every job application and just choosing whoever the fuck is most qualified for the job. If the interviewer is legitimately sexist or racist, you have some much deeper set problems that aren't going to be solved by ordering them to hire certain demographics. You could even argue that women have an upper hand by being scarce! And then you have bullshit evidence like "companies that hire diversely are more successful", when in reality this is a classic correlation/causation fallacy where the largest and most successful companies can afford the extra hiring hours and turnover of hiring the wrong candidates.
david-cako 9y ago
This is an argument that make on a regular basis and it never seems to work for the people on the other side of the argument. There's always some excuse that boils down to: A, I only care about the demographics when it's convenient (i.e., the career is prestigious) or B, "yeah well I support men in nursing and women in construction too!", despite there not being a similar effort in the known universe to force demographics in these fields.
- erikbye 9y ago
  Why should demographics be forced? This insane obsession with having a 1:1 ratio male/female, and now ethnicity-based as well, is not healthy. It's weird that the politically correct opinion seems to be that it can't be accepted that a natural gravitation towards certain professions or acts based on gender is real.
djsumdog 9y ago
I've been pretty curious about this as well. Why aren't there more women on oil rigs? We try to add diversity, but it feels so manufactured. Society has evolved the games and roles we play. It will evolve further down the line as well. What is considered acceptable for men, women, westerners, easterners, low-income, high-income will all be noticeably different in 100 years. Culture adjusts with time, and we see that in our current society, women often takes roles they feel more fulfilled with rather than those which might earn them the most money. I guess you could make the argument that they're falling into traditional family roles with men being the bread winners, but I've seen many single women on their own peruse the same ends. Maybe we should all find ways to do what we love instead of being like the guy in the Futurama poster with "You gotta do what you gotta do."
- kxyvr 9y ago
  Off and on, I do contract work for oil companies and I can say with some certainty that it's a pretty hostile environment toward women. Let me give some examples to see if I can build a picture. On the technology end of things, I used to go to the conference SEG, which a lot of deals for technology are made on the side. I've not been for the last 4-5 years, but they used to be really aggressive about their use of booth babes. For example, I remember one year where there was a vendor where I could get my shoes shined by a group of women wearing bikinis, cowboy boots, and cowboy hats while having the sales person talk to me about whatever widget they were selling. Similarly, a former coworker used to hire what were called "technical models" who were pretty women that could talk shop that they'd used to drive sales. Now, is this unique to oil? Nope. However, I felt they were pretty aggressive about it. As far as oil rig work, that's interesting for a couple of reasons. One, roughnecking is one of the only fields left that pays extremely good money for limited amount of education. Two, most of the managers that I met did a certain amount of time working on rigs to cut their teeth and they very much viewed it as a rite of passage into upper management. I mention these two things because it turns out rig work is important both for providing wealth to those with little education as well as a path to upper management. Now, as a women, is this an inviting environment? Well, let's see; there are very few women doing it right now, so it's likely you'd be one of the only ones at the operation. Further, depending on the assignment, you could literally be trapped either in the middle of the desert or on an offshore rig with literally no where to go in case there was a conflict with the other personnel. Alternatively, you could take an assignment in a place like Saudi where you have to completely cover yourself and not drive whenever you're off compound. That sucks and every woman who enters the field knows that it sucks. That said, would oil management be excited if a bunch of women wanted to do rig work? Absolutely. Each of the companies that I've worked with absolutely had outreach programs to attract women. However, it's hard because overall it's an extremely hostile environment. Further, it has a long term affect because the current oil culture encourages a certain amount of rig work to cut your teeth for management and if women aren't getting that then they're at a disadvantage for those positions as well. What to do? Honestly, I don't know. Personally, I think there's a chicken and the egg problem. If there was magically a big cohort of women who wanted to get on a rig, I think many of the problems I mentioned above would be moderated. Though, certainly, disadvantages while working in the Middle East persist. However, it's unlikely that such a cohort will magically appear. Till then, part of the point of outreach programs is to create small, incremental improvement until these problems fix themselves.
NotQuantum 9y ago
Counter point: You can reason that women wouldn't go into other fields like plumbing, or construction because those are also male dominated. The biggest distinction is that Computer Science can be a path climb the socioeconomic ladder. > I think it is also the only career which people try to inject diversity just for the sake of it. Well when you think about the reach of software in the modern world, it can influence anyone. Whereas diversity in plumbing might not be important, having different points of view on a programming team can mean the difference between having your product take off, or fail.
- ArialAnemone 9y ago
  You're not making a convincing argument. Why are the capabilities of plumbers to mentally map various causes and effects and points of failure not subject to the same forces of thought differentials you claim? My cynicism says that diversity is a result of baizou, not any actual accounting of some magic spread where different and useful ranges of thought are spread in equal proportion mapping to a species of bureaucratic classification of diversity as noted in sex and skin color and nationality.
  - Apocryphon 9y ago
    Programming requires more abstract thought than plumbing. Jobs spoke about the intersection of liberal arts and technology, wrt computer science, not plumbing.
- erikbye 9y ago
  > having different points of view on a programming team can mean the difference between having your product take off, or fail. All teams have different points of view. This has nothing to with "diversity" or gender. If there's a female or two on the team, great, but don't force it, and her opinion has no more value than the opinion of her male colleague. Forced diversity (of what? be specific, ethnicity? skin color? religion?) is not a requirement for multiple points of view.
mikeyouse 9y ago
Because minorities and the poor/disadvantaged are already over-represented in fields with dangerous physical labor.. Computer Science is a focus for these efforts because it's a high-status, high-pay career that has exceptionally poor gender/race balance. Much like Wall Street and corporate america in general: https://i.imgur.com/0mAm4OB.jpg https://i.imgur.com/0mAm4OB.jpg
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Spooky23 9y ago
My brother in law was doing an outreach to female high school athletes to get them to sign up for the civil service exam for his fire department. Technology is also unique in that between the different over-represented minority cultures, people with poor social adjustment and tolerance for "boys will be boys" creates an actively hostile culture for women.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
mempko 9y ago
It's not "for the sake of it", diversity brings insanely great benefits. Lack of diversity is likely why most software produced by this industry is, well, shit.
- taway_1212 9y ago
  > It's not "for the sake of it", diversity brings insanely great benefits. Are there any proofs of this assertion?
- DoofusOfDeath 9y ago
  > Lack of diversity is likely why most software produced by this industry is, well, sh@@. Could you share the reasons you have for believing that?
- erikbye 9y ago
  Doesn't Sturgeon's law apply to most industries? To everything?
acdha 9y ago
How much do you hear at all about plumbing or other trades? A few minutes on Google turns up links like http://womeninconstructionconference.com/ http://womeninconstructionconference.com/, http://www.new-nyc.org/ http://www.new-nyc.org/, http://www.explorethetrades.org/women-in-trades/ http://www.explorethetrades.org/women-in-trades/, etc. so I think it's most likely that you're seeing a combination of selection bias and the fact that software development is both a popular field getting general attention and one with an abnormal diversity rates compared with similar fields. That's not saying that those fields are perfect but, say, a female/Hispanic/etc. accountant, paralegal, etc. won't be the only person fitting that description at most meetings. Skilled trades often have skewed gender, ethnicity, etc. ratios but they also don't get anything like as much attention so most of us are unaware of the problem or efforts to improve things.

sidlls 9y ago

> Maybe I just live in developer bubble and don't know any better, Yes, that's quite likely. Diversity is important in this field, as in any other, for a number of reasons. The two most important are that is the brings diversity of thought, which should always be welcome in a supposedly fact-based intellectual field, and that it is a signal that we as a society value ourselves and our peers well enough to not treat anybody as second class citizens.

ArialAnemone 9y ago
But you're not promoting "diversity of thought", you're promoting BS signals. How is it promoting facts when you're searching for superficial signs of diversity? You're promoting a form of corporate doublethink where filling out bubbles of sex and race is automatically analogous with some platonic ideal where every single variant of human being had this amazing differential that'd waiting to be exploited. But instead it seems a very cynical game where the superficiality of diversity conquers honest evaluation of needs and ability.
- sidlls 9y ago
  You're making many assumptions that really aren't justified.
  - ArialAnemone 9y ago
    How are they not justified? A cynical understanding of human nature and society serves a person far better than the opposite. People want to do less work than more work. For people involved in acquiring, placing, and managing human resources, an easy way to signal "work"/"useful work" is by parroting the line of superficial diversity. That's my experience at least. I win far more bets by assuming the worst of intentions than the best in these hiring games. In the military you see a big push for "diversity", especially in relation to sex, where all sorts of carrots are trotted out just to have a platonic makeup of sees in the armed forces. Nevermind that one of those sexes has an ace in the hole called "pregnancy" which the mil. Bureaucracy will bend to accommodate. Nevermind the disastrous effects on morale and confidence in command this brings to some poor bastard from Nebraska who goes through all sorts of shit. If he gets a girlfriend, or God forbid a wife, he faces the risk of absolute cuckery on that side. If he messes around with whores and the command is looking for a scapegoat, they'll bring him up for ucmj charges. Meanwhile if his girlfriend/wife messes around with boys on the base, she has no repercussion for her actions. "Wait, what about the pregnant female soldiers?" Easy office job and easy promotion because higher-ups would rather have eye candy over a more disposable resource (competent males). What gets me is the total denial of this facet of human nature by those who push "diversity".
    - sidlls 9y ago
      I invite you to re-read this comment after you've had time to reflect. So much about it is representative of exactly the sort of casual sexism that runs rampant in this industry. From the assumptions about "human nature" to the straw-man "diversity" you describe, even.

kxyvr 9y ago

This is factually incorrect. Many years ago, I was involved in underrepresented minority outreach programs at a variety of institutions. Computer science was one of many fields, which we focused. Though, to be clear, the programs that I was involved in were all STEM centered. Also, to be clear, the word underrepresented is important here. Asians are a racial minority in the United States, but not underrepresented in STEM fields, so they do not receive the same kind of focus. Alternatively, women are not underrepresented in all STEM fields, so the attention per field varies. As a corollary to this, good programs tend to look at the number of underrepresented people at the undergraudate, graduate, and faculty levels and tend to make different decisions depending on where the need is. Generally, representation is not uniform across each of those categories. Now, this is not to contend whether these programs are good or bad. I have my own opinions. However, I will strongly say that the contention that computer science is unique in this regard is factually incorrect. Programs exist across a broad selection of fields.

djsumdog 9y ago
But that's what the parent comment was saying. It wasn't talking about CS vs the rest of STEM fields. It was engineering/sciences vs blue collar work: coal mines, oil rigs, plumbing, etc.
- kxyvr 9y ago
  The top level comment states, "Software is about the only career I can think of where there are movements created to inject social status into it so that people get into it who are only interested so long as it comes with social status/trendiness." I came to say that this is factually incorrect. Now, my experience does come from STEM, so I don't know about non-STEM fields. However, to be clear, I was responding to this comment and the following one that supports the assertion that software is special with respect to outreach programs. Certainly, I apologize if there's any confusion.
  - david-cako 9y ago
    Top level, My statement is unclear, but the "udacity/anyone can be a computer whiz!" "koding with karlie" vibe that is pushed is very different than anything else in the world. Software is unique in that it IS something that anyone with the minimum amount of the right talents can learn to do well on their own -- that's just the nature of the internet and how software is distributed/documented. It ISN'T, however, something that just anyone will be good at. Not everyone is suited for the type of information gathering and thinking that it requires. I would never delude myself into believing that I have the correct talents to be an accountant, a lawyer, or an artist. Why is this type of attitude normal in software? It obviously makes business sense for companies like udacity to sell the idea that it's easy to gain a textbook understanding of it, but the culture surrounding it tries to take it much further than that. Companies are expected to force their demographics instead of sharpie-ing over the names on every job application and just choosing whoever the fuck is most qualified for the job. If the interviewer is legitimately sexist or racist, you have some much deeper set problems that aren't going to be solved by ordering them to hire certain demographics. You could even argue that women have an upper hand by being scarce! And then you have bullshit evidence like "companies that hire diversely are more successful", when in reality this is a classic correlation/causation fallacy where the largest and most successful companies can afford the extra hiring hours and turnover of hiring the wrong candidates.

david-cako 9y ago

This is an argument that make on a regular basis and it never seems to work for the people on the other side of the argument. There's always some excuse that boils down to: A, I only care about the demographics when it's convenient (i.e., the career is prestigious) or B, "yeah well I support men in nursing and women in construction too!", despite there not being a similar effort in the known universe to force demographics in these fields.

erikbye 9y ago
Why should demographics be forced? This insane obsession with having a 1:1 ratio male/female, and now ethnicity-based as well, is not healthy. It's weird that the politically correct opinion seems to be that it can't be accepted that a natural gravitation towards certain professions or acts based on gender is real.

djsumdog 9y ago

I've been pretty curious about this as well. Why aren't there more women on oil rigs? We try to add diversity, but it feels so manufactured. Society has evolved the games and roles we play. It will evolve further down the line as well. What is considered acceptable for men, women, westerners, easterners, low-income, high-income will all be noticeably different in 100 years. Culture adjusts with time, and we see that in our current society, women often takes roles they feel more fulfilled with rather than those which might earn them the most money. I guess you could make the argument that they're falling into traditional family roles with men being the bread winners, but I've seen many single women on their own peruse the same ends. Maybe we should all find ways to do what we love instead of being like the guy in the Futurama poster with "You gotta do what you gotta do."

kxyvr 9y ago
Off and on, I do contract work for oil companies and I can say with some certainty that it's a pretty hostile environment toward women. Let me give some examples to see if I can build a picture. On the technology end of things, I used to go to the conference SEG, which a lot of deals for technology are made on the side. I've not been for the last 4-5 years, but they used to be really aggressive about their use of booth babes. For example, I remember one year where there was a vendor where I could get my shoes shined by a group of women wearing bikinis, cowboy boots, and cowboy hats while having the sales person talk to me about whatever widget they were selling. Similarly, a former coworker used to hire what were called "technical models" who were pretty women that could talk shop that they'd used to drive sales. Now, is this unique to oil? Nope. However, I felt they were pretty aggressive about it. As far as oil rig work, that's interesting for a couple of reasons. One, roughnecking is one of the only fields left that pays extremely good money for limited amount of education. Two, most of the managers that I met did a certain amount of time working on rigs to cut their teeth and they very much viewed it as a rite of passage into upper management. I mention these two things because it turns out rig work is important both for providing wealth to those with little education as well as a path to upper management. Now, as a women, is this an inviting environment? Well, let's see; there are very few women doing it right now, so it's likely you'd be one of the only ones at the operation. Further, depending on the assignment, you could literally be trapped either in the middle of the desert or on an offshore rig with literally no where to go in case there was a conflict with the other personnel. Alternatively, you could take an assignment in a place like Saudi where you have to completely cover yourself and not drive whenever you're off compound. That sucks and every woman who enters the field knows that it sucks. That said, would oil management be excited if a bunch of women wanted to do rig work? Absolutely. Each of the companies that I've worked with absolutely had outreach programs to attract women. However, it's hard because overall it's an extremely hostile environment. Further, it has a long term affect because the current oil culture encourages a certain amount of rig work to cut your teeth for management and if women aren't getting that then they're at a disadvantage for those positions as well. What to do? Honestly, I don't know. Personally, I think there's a chicken and the egg problem. If there was magically a big cohort of women who wanted to get on a rig, I think many of the problems I mentioned above would be moderated. Though, certainly, disadvantages while working in the Middle East persist. However, it's unlikely that such a cohort will magically appear. Till then, part of the point of outreach programs is to create small, incremental improvement until these problems fix themselves.

NotQuantum 9y ago

Counter point: You can reason that women wouldn't go into other fields like plumbing, or construction because those are also male dominated. The biggest distinction is that Computer Science can be a path climb the socioeconomic ladder. > I think it is also the only career which people try to inject diversity just for the sake of it. Well when you think about the reach of software in the modern world, it can influence anyone. Whereas diversity in plumbing might not be important, having different points of view on a programming team can mean the difference between having your product take off, or fail.

ArialAnemone 9y ago
You're not making a convincing argument. Why are the capabilities of plumbers to mentally map various causes and effects and points of failure not subject to the same forces of thought differentials you claim? My cynicism says that diversity is a result of baizou, not any actual accounting of some magic spread where different and useful ranges of thought are spread in equal proportion mapping to a species of bureaucratic classification of diversity as noted in sex and skin color and nationality.
- Apocryphon 9y ago
  Programming requires more abstract thought than plumbing. Jobs spoke about the intersection of liberal arts and technology, wrt computer science, not plumbing.
erikbye 9y ago
> having different points of view on a programming team can mean the difference between having your product take off, or fail. All teams have different points of view. This has nothing to with "diversity" or gender. If there's a female or two on the team, great, but don't force it, and her opinion has no more value than the opinion of her male colleague. Forced diversity (of what? be specific, ethnicity? skin color? religion?) is not a requirement for multiple points of view.

mikeyouse 9y ago

Because minorities and the poor/disadvantaged are already over-represented in fields with dangerous physical labor.. Computer Science is a focus for these efforts because it's a high-status, high-pay career that has exceptionally poor gender/race balance. Much like Wall Street and corporate america in general: https://i.imgur.com/0mAm4OB.jpg https://i.imgur.com/0mAm4OB.jpg

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

Spooky23 9y ago

My brother in law was doing an outreach to female high school athletes to get them to sign up for the civil service exam for his fire department. Technology is also unique in that between the different over-represented minority cultures, people with poor social adjustment and tolerance for "boys will be boys" creates an actively hostile culture for women.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

mempko 9y ago

It's not "for the sake of it", diversity brings insanely great benefits. Lack of diversity is likely why most software produced by this industry is, well, shit.

taway_1212 9y ago
> It's not "for the sake of it", diversity brings insanely great benefits. Are there any proofs of this assertion?
DoofusOfDeath 9y ago
> Lack of diversity is likely why most software produced by this industry is, well, sh@@. Could you share the reasons you have for believing that?
erikbye 9y ago
Doesn't Sturgeon's law apply to most industries? To everything?

acdha 9y ago

How much do you hear at all about plumbing or other trades? A few minutes on Google turns up links like http://womeninconstructionconference.com/ http://womeninconstructionconference.com/, http://www.new-nyc.org/ http://www.new-nyc.org/, http://www.explorethetrades.org/women-in-trades/ http://www.explorethetrades.org/women-in-trades/, etc. so I think it's most likely that you're seeing a combination of selection bias and the fact that software development is both a popular field getting general attention and one with an abnormal diversity rates compared with similar fields. That's not saying that those fields are perfect but, say, a female/Hispanic/etc. accountant, paralegal, etc. won't be the only person fitting that description at most meetings. Skilled trades often have skewed gender, ethnicity, etc. ratios but they also don't get anything like as much attention so most of us are unaware of the problem or efforts to improve things.