7 ms·

>He ends up (spoilers alert) coaching football. That is actually really sad. Motor sport used to be very deadly half a century ago, and it took hard work from

by tokai 9y ago

>He ends up (spoilers alert) coaching football. That is actually really sad. Motor sport used to be very deadly half a century ago, and it took hard work from drivers to change that. Drivers that were often ridiculed for talking about the need for safety. Now professional motor sport is surprisingly safe, just take Scott Dixons crash at Indy 500 yesterday from which he escaped unscathed. Football players have to demand their safety is taken seriously before any positive change is going to happen to the sport.

Klathmon 9y ago
I think it's going to take more than just the players demanding their safety, mainly because as this article notes, it's not going to happen on it's own. Why not align the incentives? Fans of the game should be putting pressure on the coaches about ensuring that their favorite players aren't injured, coaches should be pressuring the association to force better safety systems so their players don't get removed from the game, the contracts with players should value their long-term abilities more than their short-term wins, the association can start including more and more safety requirements and rules to make sure that the fans keep watching for their favorite stars. This kind of thing needs to be attacked at all angles, make everyone involved WANT better safety by making it make beneficial to everyone involved.
- ebiester 9y ago
  There is only so much safety when you're talking about 300 pounds meeting 250 pounds. The problem with football is physics.
  - Klathmon 9y ago
    Then change the rules of the game. Racing did it, they regulated the max amount of fuel, they reduced the top speeds, they added safety barriers, etc... Do it with football. Change their gear, change the allowed "hits", remove their cleats, etc... I don't actually watch football so I'm not sure what would help or wouldn't, but don't act like this is just impossible to resolve. Yeah, people would probably hate these kinds of solutions right now, but if you get the public opinion on your side, and you start moving in that direction people will change, they will realize being able to watch a safer form of football with their favorite players in it beats being able to watch "current football" but with all their favorite players horribly injured with their lives ruined.
    - mnm1 9y ago
      This is happening, although not as much as it could and probably should be. One example is moving kickoffs to a higher yard line so that the chance of a touchback (no return) is greater. Since kickoff returns are some of the more dangerous plays, it lessens the times returns actually happen. Helmet to helmet collision rules are another example. So is the rule for the horse collar tackle. Things are changing, but perhaps not enough or fast enough. Further, as a huge fan, these rules are minor changes and do not at all detract from the game, IMO.
      - ktRolster 9y ago
        They should just play flag football and skip that tackling stuff.
      - jimnotgym 9y ago
        I really don't know anything about American football, but in Rugby a lot of work has gone into this kind of thing. You can't tackle a player who has jumped to catch the ball until his feet touch the ground. If you pick a player up, you are responsible for putting them down. High tackles (around the neck) or not attempting to wrap your arms around a player when (so you 'clothes-line them) you tackle is much heavily penalized. All of these will result in 10 minutes in the sin-bin at least, maybe bans after the game. All head injuries result in the player being sent for 'assessment' by a doctor during the game, and a concussion protocol which enforces long breaks from the game. With regards to American football I have two questions 1) Is the impact to the brain higher because of the protective equipment? Would people tackle as ferociously without it? You are allowed very little of that gear in Rugby. Head clashes in particular are rare in Rugby, without the helmet you put your head to the side of someone when you tackle! 2) American football players seem to carry a lot of body mass for fast people. Is it possible that their advanced sports science is a bit too pharmaceutical in nature? I wouldn't want to suggest anything, but is there a chance steroid use is widespread? If this is the case then clamping down here would presumably lessen the hits?
        fencepost 9y ago
        It's likely that a bit of the size /bulking up is steroid based, but a lot more is just based on the relative size of the population pool and the kinds of exercise and diet regimens used with a focus on size and burst speed. Where some sports will stop at a certain level then focus on stamina and maintenance, US football may keep pushing for more bulk.
  - peeters 9y ago
    To a certain extent sure, but there's a full spectrum. Football does have safer rules than it did a couple decades ago, so obviously there is and has been room for change. Rugby has similar sized guys (not quite as big, but big) and don't even wear protective gear (not that rugby players are immune to concussions). There's a big spectrum of rules in similar games, and football is still pretty far on the dangerous end of that spectrum. One of the issues with football is that because they're wearing helmets they think that contact on the head is safe. It's incredibly not.
    - acjohnson55 9y ago
      Rugby Union does a lot to regulate how contact happens. Rugby League (actually a different sport) has a combination of the lack of protection of Union and the outright violence of American Football. I don't follow League enough to know whether the lack of protection tends to lessen injuries. I understand it to be a game with a short shelf life for top players.
  - iClaudiusX 9y ago
    Grand Prix racing involves a 1500 pound car hitting a wall at +200 mph, with fuel. Death used to be guaranteed during the course of a season, but now any serious injury is rare. Dismissing safety as impossible "because physics" is just silly. Technical solutions are the easy part. It's the culture change that is difficult.
  - Retric 9y ago
    You might be surprised, while mandating full exoskeletons is off the table there is quite a bit more we could do, You can for example mandate braces which would prevent most joint injury. The added weight while minor slightly reduces performance so it can't catch on at an individual or team level.
    - taneq 9y ago
      There seems to be a fair amount of body armour (helmets, padding etc) involved already. I'd imagine there was a lot of resistance when that was introduced, but it's normal now.
- tokai 9y ago
  I'm totally on board with you. But I think unfortunately that it has to start with the athletes, as they have most skin in the game. In the documentary The Killer Years about the safety of old grand prix racing there is a clip with a fan. She is asked who her favourite driver is, and her answer is that he is dead. But she was still at a race supporting the sport as it was. Fans might dislike loosing their favourite players. But for fans it is ultimately entertainment. So if your favourite player is injured/dies you feel sad, pick a new favourite and move on. You don't start investing your life in sport politics. It is compounded by safety measures often, at the face of it, makes things less extreme in a sport. And fans love the extreme and extraordinary. For coaches and contracts, profit motives works against any bettering from their side. Why use money on safety, when you have a long line of young players ready to step up and carry on.
EGreg 9y ago
Anyone see the movie Concussion with Will Smith? It's all about this. Boxers still coach boxing though. This is just a smaller version of the mentality of people watching gladiators.
brightball 9y ago
Justin Wilson wasn't as lucky a couple of years ago. He was a great guy and had two young kids. Tragic.
jfim 9y ago
> Football players have to demand their safety is taken seriously before any positive change is going to happen to the sport. Keep in mind that there are many viewers who are not really interested in the sport itself but explosions, injuries and other accidents. For them, the lack of safety is a "feature." You can easily check the view counts of videos for "big football hits" or "nascar crashes" on youtube to see that it's not a small audience. There's also the fact that having additional protection makes people feel more confident and take more risks than they normally would. With all the additional padding, there are a lot fewer minor injuries but more of the serious (and less frequent) injuries.
balls187 9y ago
> Football players have to demand their safety is taken seriously before any positive change is going to happen to the sport. In the NFL, the players don't have much authority past their players union, and it's been documented that most of the players who hold power are the NFL stars, who's comp structures don't incentivize participation in CBA's. Pro Football players live on average more than the average american male. https://blogs.cdc.gov/niosh-science-blog/2012/01/30/nfl/ https://blogs.cdc.gov/niosh-science-blog/2012/01/30/nfl/

by tokai 9y ago

Klathmon 9y ago

I think it's going to take more than just the players demanding their safety, mainly because as this article notes, it's not going to happen on it's own. Why not align the incentives? Fans of the game should be putting pressure on the coaches about ensuring that their favorite players aren't injured, coaches should be pressuring the association to force better safety systems so their players don't get removed from the game, the contracts with players should value their long-term abilities more than their short-term wins, the association can start including more and more safety requirements and rules to make sure that the fans keep watching for their favorite stars. This kind of thing needs to be attacked at all angles, make everyone involved WANT better safety by making it make beneficial to everyone involved.

ebiester 9y ago
There is only so much safety when you're talking about 300 pounds meeting 250 pounds. The problem with football is physics.
- Klathmon 9y ago
  Then change the rules of the game. Racing did it, they regulated the max amount of fuel, they reduced the top speeds, they added safety barriers, etc... Do it with football. Change their gear, change the allowed "hits", remove their cleats, etc... I don't actually watch football so I'm not sure what would help or wouldn't, but don't act like this is just impossible to resolve. Yeah, people would probably hate these kinds of solutions right now, but if you get the public opinion on your side, and you start moving in that direction people will change, they will realize being able to watch a safer form of football with their favorite players in it beats being able to watch "current football" but with all their favorite players horribly injured with their lives ruined.
  - mnm1 9y ago
    This is happening, although not as much as it could and probably should be. One example is moving kickoffs to a higher yard line so that the chance of a touchback (no return) is greater. Since kickoff returns are some of the more dangerous plays, it lessens the times returns actually happen. Helmet to helmet collision rules are another example. So is the rule for the horse collar tackle. Things are changing, but perhaps not enough or fast enough. Further, as a huge fan, these rules are minor changes and do not at all detract from the game, IMO.
    - ktRolster 9y ago
      They should just play flag football and skip that tackling stuff.
    - jimnotgym 9y ago
      I really don't know anything about American football, but in Rugby a lot of work has gone into this kind of thing. You can't tackle a player who has jumped to catch the ball until his feet touch the ground. If you pick a player up, you are responsible for putting them down. High tackles (around the neck) or not attempting to wrap your arms around a player when (so you 'clothes-line them) you tackle is much heavily penalized. All of these will result in 10 minutes in the sin-bin at least, maybe bans after the game. All head injuries result in the player being sent for 'assessment' by a doctor during the game, and a concussion protocol which enforces long breaks from the game. With regards to American football I have two questions 1) Is the impact to the brain higher because of the protective equipment? Would people tackle as ferociously without it? You are allowed very little of that gear in Rugby. Head clashes in particular are rare in Rugby, without the helmet you put your head to the side of someone when you tackle! 2) American football players seem to carry a lot of body mass for fast people. Is it possible that their advanced sports science is a bit too pharmaceutical in nature? I wouldn't want to suggest anything, but is there a chance steroid use is widespread? If this is the case then clamping down here would presumably lessen the hits?
      - fencepost 9y ago
        It's likely that a bit of the size /bulking up is steroid based, but a lot more is just based on the relative size of the population pool and the kinds of exercise and diet regimens used with a focus on size and burst speed. Where some sports will stop at a certain level then focus on stamina and maintenance, US football may keep pushing for more bulk.
- peeters 9y ago
  To a certain extent sure, but there's a full spectrum. Football does have safer rules than it did a couple decades ago, so obviously there is and has been room for change. Rugby has similar sized guys (not quite as big, but big) and don't even wear protective gear (not that rugby players are immune to concussions). There's a big spectrum of rules in similar games, and football is still pretty far on the dangerous end of that spectrum. One of the issues with football is that because they're wearing helmets they think that contact on the head is safe. It's incredibly not.
  - acjohnson55 9y ago
    Rugby Union does a lot to regulate how contact happens. Rugby League (actually a different sport) has a combination of the lack of protection of Union and the outright violence of American Football. I don't follow League enough to know whether the lack of protection tends to lessen injuries. I understand it to be a game with a short shelf life for top players.
- iClaudiusX 9y ago
  Grand Prix racing involves a 1500 pound car hitting a wall at +200 mph, with fuel. Death used to be guaranteed during the course of a season, but now any serious injury is rare. Dismissing safety as impossible "because physics" is just silly. Technical solutions are the easy part. It's the culture change that is difficult.
- Retric 9y ago
  You might be surprised, while mandating full exoskeletons is off the table there is quite a bit more we could do, You can for example mandate braces which would prevent most joint injury. The added weight while minor slightly reduces performance so it can't catch on at an individual or team level.
  - taneq 9y ago
    There seems to be a fair amount of body armour (helmets, padding etc) involved already. I'd imagine there was a lot of resistance when that was introduced, but it's normal now.
tokai 9y ago
I'm totally on board with you. But I think unfortunately that it has to start with the athletes, as they have most skin in the game. In the documentary The Killer Years about the safety of old grand prix racing there is a clip with a fan. She is asked who her favourite driver is, and her answer is that he is dead. But she was still at a race supporting the sport as it was. Fans might dislike loosing their favourite players. But for fans it is ultimately entertainment. So if your favourite player is injured/dies you feel sad, pick a new favourite and move on. You don't start investing your life in sport politics. It is compounded by safety measures often, at the face of it, makes things less extreme in a sport. And fans love the extreme and extraordinary. For coaches and contracts, profit motives works against any bettering from their side. Why use money on safety, when you have a long line of young players ready to step up and carry on.

EGreg 9y ago

Anyone see the movie Concussion with Will Smith? It's all about this. Boxers still coach boxing though. This is just a smaller version of the mentality of people watching gladiators.

brightball 9y ago

Justin Wilson wasn't as lucky a couple of years ago. He was a great guy and had two young kids. Tragic.

jfim 9y ago

> Football players have to demand their safety is taken seriously before any positive change is going to happen to the sport. Keep in mind that there are many viewers who are not really interested in the sport itself but explosions, injuries and other accidents. For them, the lack of safety is a "feature." You can easily check the view counts of videos for "big football hits" or "nascar crashes" on youtube to see that it's not a small audience. There's also the fact that having additional protection makes people feel more confident and take more risks than they normally would. With all the additional padding, there are a lot fewer minor injuries but more of the serious (and less frequent) injuries.

balls187 9y ago

> Football players have to demand their safety is taken seriously before any positive change is going to happen to the sport. In the NFL, the players don't have much authority past their players union, and it's been documented that most of the players who hold power are the NFL stars, who's comp structures don't incentivize participation in CBA's. Pro Football players live on average more than the average american male. https://blogs.cdc.gov/niosh-science-blog/2012/01/30/nfl/ https://blogs.cdc.gov/niosh-science-blog/2012/01/30/nfl/