4 ms·

I'm very skeptical of that claim. Besides the fact that every week we read an article about X city is the new Silicon Valley, Europeans in general don't seem to

by boona 9y ago

I'm very skeptical of that claim. Besides the fact that every week we read an article about X city is the new Silicon Valley, Europeans in general don't seem to have that same drive Americans do to create new products. Which could explain why we haven't seen many large innovative tech companies come out of there in a while. (Though in countries like the Czech Republic, and to a lesser extent places like Romania and Poland seem to have more drive, and the work ethic to boot.) Edit: I'm not saying that they haven't achieved say a better work/life balance, but that their culture doesn't seem to produce very many world changing entrepreneurs as evidenced by so few companies being created there and that stay there. I'm not sure what's going on with the Hacker News culture lately, but it seems to be increasingly hostile to diversity of thought. I get that comparing cultures has come under fire from the extreme political left, but that's no reason we can't have a discussion about it. I would like it if members didn't just downvote me, but engage me instead. Anecdotally, I've been to several European countries, I've engaged with local populations, and the culture is different. And empirically, they're not innovating anywhere near the rate the US is. I'm willing to change my views, I would love to be wrong and that Europe will experience an entrepreneurial renaissance, but I just don't see it. Tell me where I'm wrong.

rmc 9y ago
> Europeans in general don't seem to have that same drive Americans do to create new products Maybe they don't want to work 70 hour weeks?
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  Probably. Same result. These are trade-offs made in picking a social model. Higher subjective happiness, perhaps, in exchange for a loss of competitiveness. As long as the latter isn't so much that it makes the former unsustainable, I think it is a fair choice. Not what would make me happy, though.
- boona 9y ago
  Exactly. Elon Musk has been working 80 hour work weeks for the past 20 years now. I'm not saying that's anywhere near a balanced lifestyle. But without those sacrifices, it's much harder to produce innovative world changing products or services. The United States creates and draws those character types to it, and for many Europeans countries, they don't.
  - danielam 9y ago
    There's a body of research that corroborates the opposite claim, i.e., that past a certain point, working more hours does not correlate with -- or correlates negatively with -- effectiveness. So if Europe is less "innovative", the reasons are not likely related to a simplistic measure like hours worked.
    - EduardoBautista 9y ago
      And I am sure there are exceptions to that claim, e.g. Elon Musk. Not all humans are wired the same way. People that can work 80 hour weeks effectively are rare, which is why those types of CEOs have million dollar salaries.
    - smsm42 9y ago
      On overall, probably not. There's a difference though between average load and peak load. Virtually nobody could sustain a 80 hour work weak for an extended time. A lot of people could do it for a short time, provided the possibility of a large reward.
  - aries1980 9y ago
    I'm pretty sure the accumulation of capital that draws people to SV and New York. There were numerous studies, e.g. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228200217_The_Geography_of_Venture_Capital_Contracts https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228200217_The_Geogr... . That's why it is really hard to set foot 50 miles further than the centre of VCs, not because it is harder to attract talent.) “In Connecticut and Massachusetts the proportion of investments located within 50 miles of the investor’s home or office is 37% (Freear et al, 1992). In New England the equivalent proportion is 58% (Wetzel, 1981) while in Ottawa the proportion is 85% (this high proportion reflecting its proximity to different cultural and political milieus to the north and south and distance from other major urban areas in English-speaking Canada). In the UK, Mason and Harrison (1994) found that two-thirds of investments by UK business angels were made within 100 miles of home.” http://strathprints.strath.ac.uk/15803/ http://strathprints.strath.ac.uk/15803/ This slowly changes, but still, matters.
- watwut 9y ago
  Just about any study about effective I read concluded that working more then 50 hours a week shows you down.
  - watwut 9y ago
    Was supposed to be "slows".
- smsm42 9y ago
  Maybe. And that's totally valid choice. But hardly compatible with high-risk high-reward culture that most startups - at least initially - are. I mean, you certainly can run a startup on 9-to-5 40 days off per yer schedule. It just the chances of it succeeding will be somewhat less than one where people are willing to put 70 hour weeks in. If these diminished chances are enough for you - great. But overall the model would have less prolific startup scene - which is what, I think, we do observe.
geff82 9y ago
Only because they have not yet come to the US, it does not mean they aren't productive, international businesses.
- boona 9y ago
  What are they waiting for? Why aren't they providing their services to the most lucrative market on the planet?
  - geff82 9y ago
    Why is not every US startup in EU, the biggest western other market? a.) maybe it does not make sense due to the type of product b.) maybe it is not time yet c.) maybe they find their home market profitable enough.
  - geff82 9y ago
    And don't get me started on US visa policies to start an office there. I for one am currently in the surprisingly easy straightforward process of hiring highly qualified Iranians - which surely hesitate to come to you currently.

by boona 9y ago

rmc 9y ago

> Europeans in general don't seem to have that same drive Americans do to create new products Maybe they don't want to work 70 hour weeks?

JumpCrisscross 9y ago
Probably. Same result. These are trade-offs made in picking a social model. Higher subjective happiness, perhaps, in exchange for a loss of competitiveness. As long as the latter isn't so much that it makes the former unsustainable, I think it is a fair choice. Not what would make me happy, though.
boona 9y ago
Exactly. Elon Musk has been working 80 hour work weeks for the past 20 years now. I'm not saying that's anywhere near a balanced lifestyle. But without those sacrifices, it's much harder to produce innovative world changing products or services. The United States creates and draws those character types to it, and for many Europeans countries, they don't.
- danielam 9y ago
  There's a body of research that corroborates the opposite claim, i.e., that past a certain point, working more hours does not correlate with -- or correlates negatively with -- effectiveness. So if Europe is less "innovative", the reasons are not likely related to a simplistic measure like hours worked.
  - EduardoBautista 9y ago
    And I am sure there are exceptions to that claim, e.g. Elon Musk. Not all humans are wired the same way. People that can work 80 hour weeks effectively are rare, which is why those types of CEOs have million dollar salaries.
  - smsm42 9y ago
    On overall, probably not. There's a difference though between average load and peak load. Virtually nobody could sustain a 80 hour work weak for an extended time. A lot of people could do it for a short time, provided the possibility of a large reward.
- aries1980 9y ago
  I'm pretty sure the accumulation of capital that draws people to SV and New York. There were numerous studies, e.g. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228200217_The_Geography_of_Venture_Capital_Contracts https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228200217_The_Geogr... . That's why it is really hard to set foot 50 miles further than the centre of VCs, not because it is harder to attract talent.) “In Connecticut and Massachusetts the proportion of investments located within 50 miles of the investor’s home or office is 37% (Freear et al, 1992). In New England the equivalent proportion is 58% (Wetzel, 1981) while in Ottawa the proportion is 85% (this high proportion reflecting its proximity to different cultural and political milieus to the north and south and distance from other major urban areas in English-speaking Canada). In the UK, Mason and Harrison (1994) found that two-thirds of investments by UK business angels were made within 100 miles of home.” http://strathprints.strath.ac.uk/15803/ http://strathprints.strath.ac.uk/15803/ This slowly changes, but still, matters.
watwut 9y ago
Just about any study about effective I read concluded that working more then 50 hours a week shows you down.
- watwut 9y ago
  Was supposed to be "slows".
smsm42 9y ago
Maybe. And that's totally valid choice. But hardly compatible with high-risk high-reward culture that most startups - at least initially - are. I mean, you certainly can run a startup on 9-to-5 40 days off per yer schedule. It just the chances of it succeeding will be somewhat less than one where people are willing to put 70 hour weeks in. If these diminished chances are enough for you - great. But overall the model would have less prolific startup scene - which is what, I think, we do observe.

geff82 9y ago

Only because they have not yet come to the US, it does not mean they aren't productive, international businesses.

boona 9y ago
What are they waiting for? Why aren't they providing their services to the most lucrative market on the planet?
- geff82 9y ago
  Why is not every US startup in EU, the biggest western other market? a.) maybe it does not make sense due to the type of product b.) maybe it is not time yet c.) maybe they find their home market profitable enough.
- geff82 9y ago
  And don't get me started on US visa policies to start an office there. I for one am currently in the surprisingly easy straightforward process of hiring highly qualified Iranians - which surely hesitate to come to you currently.