8 ms·

I hope not. The pay of developers is horrible compared to silicon valley.

geff82 9y ago
Maybe pay in startups is not good, but if you need a kick of money, go contracting in big business and get wealthy... there is more than startups to tech.
Thaxll 9y ago
They probably don't pay 1.5k/month to live in a RV.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
DarkKomunalec 9y ago
Is that scaled to cost of living?
- cirgue 9y ago
  No, not by a long shot.
- ews 9y ago
  This. I moved from SF to Berlin accepting a 40% paycut. My standard of living in Germany was probably 2.5x compared to California. However, I decided to go back to San Francisco. There is definitely much more interesting work in Silicon Valley, at least in my field. This may change over time but I am not holding my breath.
  - tzakrajs 9y ago
    Makes you reconsider what quality of living really means.
    - friendlyfireman 9y ago
      Different people have different priorities. EU may be a better fit for some, while SV is for others.
- cmdkeen 9y ago
  Here's the thing with pay scaled to cost of living, it means things like pension contributions, ability to save, any property you purchase, are also scaled. There's a reason so many people flock to expensive cities early in their careers. Very early stage startups might be able to move around Europe for a short period for cheap rents, you're going to be much less able to recruit staff (i.e. non-founders) to move from the West to Slovakia (as mentioned) to work for Slovakian wages.
  - aries1980 9y ago
    Staff should be compensate based on the value of they provide rather than their living standard needs.
    - aries1980 9y ago
      So, based on having -1 points on my comment, I can summarise your thoughts: employee compensation should be based on the living standard they needs, rather than the value they create. In sarcastic way: to max out your next a payrise, move to the most expensive city and buy a Pagani. That's an odd thought.
KitDuncan 9y ago
The cost of living is also a fraction of the one in silicon valley. I stayed in Silicon Valley for a few months and compared to Munich, the quality of living is complete horse shit, to be honest. And Munich is the most expensive city in Germany.
- aries1980 9y ago
  I bet you don't mean at central locations, because 10-20 miles further to your workplace, as most of Londoners or Berliners can afford to live, you have affordable housing in SV as well.
  - KitDuncan 9y ago
    That's an interesting aspect I didn't consider. Another issue though is traffic during rush hour in Silicon Valley. I can see myself traveling 20 miles in/around Munich in half an hour, while in Silicon Valley, that would probably take me 1.5 hours, because of the pretty much non existent public transportation.
    - aries1980 9y ago
      London is not much better. E.g. from Hammersmith (a posh, well connected area) to Old Street (aka “Tech City”), this 14km journey is 46 mins from underground station to underground station, both are north to the river. https://tfl.gov.uk/plan-a-journey/results?IsAsync=true&JpType=publictransport&InputFrom=Hammersmith%2C+London%2C+United+Kingdom&Modes=bus%2Ctube%2Cnational-rail%2Cdlr%2Coverground%2Ctflrail%2Criver-bus%2Ctram%2Ccable-car%2Ccoach&From=Hammersmith%2C+London%2C+United+Kingdom&FromId=&PreviousFrom=Greenwich&InputTo=Old+Street%2C+Old+Street+Station&To=Old+Street%2C+Old+Street+Station&ToId=1000169&PreviousTo=Old+Street%2C+Old+Street+Station&TimeIs=arriving&Date=20170531&Time=0900&IsMapRequired=False&Mode=bus&Mode=tube&Mode=national-rail&Mode=dlr&Mode=overground&Mode=tflrail&Mode=river-bus&Mode=tram&Mode=cable-car&Mode=coach&CyclePreference=AllTheWay&WalkingSpeedWalking=average&JourneyPreference=leasttime&AccessibilityPreference=norequirements&MaxWalkingMinutes=40&WalkingSpeedTransport=average&InputVia=&Via=&ViaId=&PreviousVia=&NationalSearch=false&WalkingOptimization=false&SavePreferences=false&IsMultipleJourneySelection=False&JourneyType=&IsPastWarning=False https://tfl.gov.uk/plan-a-journey/results?IsAsync=true&JpTyp... Sure, you can move around to carve down 10 mins, but then you give up to live in realitvely nice, convenient area populated middle class people and yet not as expensive as Chelsea or Chiswick. If you live further, your journey time from station to station is not much longer, but only if you are lucky and there is no delay in the service, which happens almost daily.
mcbetz 9y ago
I wonder: Would this argument still be true if you counted in the cost of living (which varies massively across Europe and also within countries and even cities). Europe is not only Paris and Berlin, in Germany actually the economic powerhorses often are based in the countryside (or close to larger cities) and cost of living is very okay.

Maybe pay in startups is not good, but if you need a kick of money, go contracting in big business and get wealthy... there is more than startups to tech.

Thaxll 9y ago

They probably don't pay 1.5k/month to live in a RV.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

DarkKomunalec 9y ago

Is that scaled to cost of living?

cirgue 9y ago
No, not by a long shot.
ews 9y ago
This. I moved from SF to Berlin accepting a 40% paycut. My standard of living in Germany was probably 2.5x compared to California. However, I decided to go back to San Francisco. There is definitely much more interesting work in Silicon Valley, at least in my field. This may change over time but I am not holding my breath.
- tzakrajs 9y ago
  Makes you reconsider what quality of living really means.
  - friendlyfireman 9y ago
    Different people have different priorities. EU may be a better fit for some, while SV is for others.
cmdkeen 9y ago
Here's the thing with pay scaled to cost of living, it means things like pension contributions, ability to save, any property you purchase, are also scaled. There's a reason so many people flock to expensive cities early in their careers. Very early stage startups might be able to move around Europe for a short period for cheap rents, you're going to be much less able to recruit staff (i.e. non-founders) to move from the West to Slovakia (as mentioned) to work for Slovakian wages.
- aries1980 9y ago
  Staff should be compensate based on the value of they provide rather than their living standard needs.
  - aries1980 9y ago
    So, based on having -1 points on my comment, I can summarise your thoughts: employee compensation should be based on the living standard they needs, rather than the value they create. In sarcastic way: to max out your next a payrise, move to the most expensive city and buy a Pagani. That's an odd thought.

KitDuncan 9y ago

The cost of living is also a fraction of the one in silicon valley. I stayed in Silicon Valley for a few months and compared to Munich, the quality of living is complete horse shit, to be honest. And Munich is the most expensive city in Germany.

aries1980 9y ago
I bet you don't mean at central locations, because 10-20 miles further to your workplace, as most of Londoners or Berliners can afford to live, you have affordable housing in SV as well.
- KitDuncan 9y ago
  That's an interesting aspect I didn't consider. Another issue though is traffic during rush hour in Silicon Valley. I can see myself traveling 20 miles in/around Munich in half an hour, while in Silicon Valley, that would probably take me 1.5 hours, because of the pretty much non existent public transportation.
  - aries1980 9y ago
    London is not much better. E.g. from Hammersmith (a posh, well connected area) to Old Street (aka “Tech City”), this 14km journey is 46 mins from underground station to underground station, both are north to the river. https://tfl.gov.uk/plan-a-journey/results?IsAsync=true&JpType=publictransport&InputFrom=Hammersmith%2C+London%2C+United+Kingdom&Modes=bus%2Ctube%2Cnational-rail%2Cdlr%2Coverground%2Ctflrail%2Criver-bus%2Ctram%2Ccable-car%2Ccoach&From=Hammersmith%2C+London%2C+United+Kingdom&FromId=&PreviousFrom=Greenwich&InputTo=Old+Street%2C+Old+Street+Station&To=Old+Street%2C+Old+Street+Station&ToId=1000169&PreviousTo=Old+Street%2C+Old+Street+Station&TimeIs=arriving&Date=20170531&Time=0900&IsMapRequired=False&Mode=bus&Mode=tube&Mode=national-rail&Mode=dlr&Mode=overground&Mode=tflrail&Mode=river-bus&Mode=tram&Mode=cable-car&Mode=coach&CyclePreference=AllTheWay&WalkingSpeedWalking=average&JourneyPreference=leasttime&AccessibilityPreference=norequirements&MaxWalkingMinutes=40&WalkingSpeedTransport=average&InputVia=&Via=&ViaId=&PreviousVia=&NationalSearch=false&WalkingOptimization=false&SavePreferences=false&IsMultipleJourneySelection=False&JourneyType=&IsPastWarning=False https://tfl.gov.uk/plan-a-journey/results?IsAsync=true&JpTyp... Sure, you can move around to carve down 10 mins, but then you give up to live in realitvely nice, convenient area populated middle class people and yet not as expensive as Chelsea or Chiswick. If you live further, your journey time from station to station is not much longer, but only if you are lucky and there is no delay in the service, which happens almost daily.

mcbetz 9y ago

I wonder: Would this argument still be true if you counted in the cost of living (which varies massively across Europe and also within countries and even cities). Europe is not only Paris and Berlin, in Germany actually the economic powerhorses often are based in the countryside (or close to larger cities) and cost of living is very okay.