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Then once you're rolling, the amount of red tape involved in testing, releasing, updating etc really is shocking. I've been doing iOS dev for seven years, and

Then once you're rolling, the amount of red tape involved in testing, releasing, updating etc really is shocking. I've been doing iOS dev for seven years, and have launched dozens of apps for organizations large and small, many of which had Android versions too. I have no idea what you're talking about here. Yes, you have to submit updates for approval, but it's quick and easy, and I can count on one hand the number of rejections I've ever gotten, all of which were easily fixed. 95% of my updates are approved in 1-2 days. On the testing side, TestFlight and other tools make testing pretty quick and easy. So what is the "bureaucracy" you're talking about? The biggest issues with iOS are the 30% cut Apple takes, and discoverability on the store. The dev experience is actually pretty good, and the user experience is much better than Android. Apple's balance here is FAR superior to Android's.

rusk 9y ago
Well, like you say, you've been doing iOS dev for seven years, which kind of puts you into what I'd describe as the "Specialist" category. I wouldn't go trying to develop an iOS application without somebody of your calibre on board - but then you're either an expensive developer with cross-disciplinary skills or somebody we have "on retainer" to deal with this kind of stuff. Specifically what I recommended my colleague hire once she has her prototyping done, purely to deal with the machinations of the Apple ecosystem. Then just take it inhouse for support and maintenance. It's interesting you mention test-flight specifically as this is something we've had a huge amount of trouble transitioning to. For an Apple specialist this is probably a no-brainer but for a product development org this is yet another headache where we used to just be able to issue our own development testing certificates.
- ryanwaggoner 9y ago
  Maybe you're right and I don't realize how complex it is, but I'm skeptical. Android seems worse in many ways, and I had no trouble starting iOS dev back in 2010. And it's gotten faster and easier since then, so I don't think it's just my amazing skills (though I'd like to take more credit). What specifically is so onerous? Are you sure these aren't just organizational issues on your end?
  - rusk 9y ago
    Yes it is largely organisational in that I typically work in specialist technical fields where our manpower is directed elsewhere than dealing with specific platform issues. Point is though, that where you're talking about growth these are precisely the areas that native is losing out.
- charlesdm 9y ago
  It's specialised, but nothing ground breaking. The major issue that I had when starting 6 years ago was having issues with code signing, but those have largely been fixed in the latest versions of Xcode. I never had any of the issues you described. Getting an app in the App Store isn't much harder than integrating with a third party API. Frankly, I don't see how they could make it much simpler. You make a build, upload it, it gets reviewed and you push it to the store. Adhering to the rules of the ecosystem is the price you pay for getting access to >100 million accounts that can drop pretty much any amount on your software with the touch of a button. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me. I've managed to make plenty of money through the App Store.
  - rusk 9y ago
    I only have my third-party empirical experience to go on. Developing for other platforms seems far more straightforward. If this has changed recently then that is a good thing, but experiences in the meantime has left scars that might take a year or two to heal.
    - charlesdm 9y ago
      I had previously done Android development, and god, how I hated that. A gazillion phones with different screen resolutions and apps never looking exactly the way you want them to, random APIs breaking on random devices, because some shitty chinese manufacturer skimped on certain key things, etc etc. In comparison, iOS development seems pretty great to me.
      - rusk 9y ago
        Yes, very true. Both ecosystems have their issues.
Silhouette 9y ago
Yes, you have to submit updates for approval, but it's quick and easy, and I can count on one hand the number of rejections I've ever gotten, all of which were easily fixed. 95% of my updates are approved in 1-2 days. I think the point is that if I'm a web developer and I want to update my web app, I can deploy in 1-2 minutes with 100% acceptance rate. The only fees I have to pay are for hosting, and everything else is totally under my control. I'm not subject to the caprice of whoever runs any official app store for some platform, nor to paying them exorbitant rents.
- ryanwaggoner 9y ago
  I get that, but it's hardly a horrible bureaucracy. I did web dev for years and there are lots of trade-offs there too.
  - Silhouette 9y ago
    I did web dev for years and there are lots of trade-offs there too. True enough, but having one organisation able to entirely dictate whether your app lives or dies is not one of them and never has been. That and the 30% cut were all it took to reduce our interest in iOS apps to near zero for any project I've ever worked on.
    - ryanwaggoner 9y ago
      It's not a good fit for everyone, I agree.

rusk 9y ago

Well, like you say, you've been doing iOS dev for seven years, which kind of puts you into what I'd describe as the "Specialist" category. I wouldn't go trying to develop an iOS application without somebody of your calibre on board - but then you're either an expensive developer with cross-disciplinary skills or somebody we have "on retainer" to deal with this kind of stuff. Specifically what I recommended my colleague hire once she has her prototyping done, purely to deal with the machinations of the Apple ecosystem. Then just take it inhouse for support and maintenance. It's interesting you mention test-flight specifically as this is something we've had a huge amount of trouble transitioning to. For an Apple specialist this is probably a no-brainer but for a product development org this is yet another headache where we used to just be able to issue our own development testing certificates.

ryanwaggoner 9y ago
Maybe you're right and I don't realize how complex it is, but I'm skeptical. Android seems worse in many ways, and I had no trouble starting iOS dev back in 2010. And it's gotten faster and easier since then, so I don't think it's just my amazing skills (though I'd like to take more credit). What specifically is so onerous? Are you sure these aren't just organizational issues on your end?
- rusk 9y ago
  Yes it is largely organisational in that I typically work in specialist technical fields where our manpower is directed elsewhere than dealing with specific platform issues. Point is though, that where you're talking about growth these are precisely the areas that native is losing out.
charlesdm 9y ago
It's specialised, but nothing ground breaking. The major issue that I had when starting 6 years ago was having issues with code signing, but those have largely been fixed in the latest versions of Xcode. I never had any of the issues you described. Getting an app in the App Store isn't much harder than integrating with a third party API. Frankly, I don't see how they could make it much simpler. You make a build, upload it, it gets reviewed and you push it to the store. Adhering to the rules of the ecosystem is the price you pay for getting access to >100 million accounts that can drop pretty much any amount on your software with the touch of a button. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me. I've managed to make plenty of money through the App Store.
- rusk 9y ago
  I only have my third-party empirical experience to go on. Developing for other platforms seems far more straightforward. If this has changed recently then that is a good thing, but experiences in the meantime has left scars that might take a year or two to heal.
  - charlesdm 9y ago
    I had previously done Android development, and god, how I hated that. A gazillion phones with different screen resolutions and apps never looking exactly the way you want them to, random APIs breaking on random devices, because some shitty chinese manufacturer skimped on certain key things, etc etc. In comparison, iOS development seems pretty great to me.
    - rusk 9y ago
      Yes, very true. Both ecosystems have their issues.

Silhouette 9y ago

Yes, you have to submit updates for approval, but it's quick and easy, and I can count on one hand the number of rejections I've ever gotten, all of which were easily fixed. 95% of my updates are approved in 1-2 days. I think the point is that if I'm a web developer and I want to update my web app, I can deploy in 1-2 minutes with 100% acceptance rate. The only fees I have to pay are for hosting, and everything else is totally under my control. I'm not subject to the caprice of whoever runs any official app store for some platform, nor to paying them exorbitant rents.

ryanwaggoner 9y ago
I get that, but it's hardly a horrible bureaucracy. I did web dev for years and there are lots of trade-offs there too.
- Silhouette 9y ago
  I did web dev for years and there are lots of trade-offs there too. True enough, but having one organisation able to entirely dictate whether your app lives or dies is not one of them and never has been. That and the 30% cut were all it took to reduce our interest in iOS apps to near zero for any project I've ever worked on.
  - ryanwaggoner 9y ago
    It's not a good fit for everyone, I agree.