5 ms·

Could school subjects soon be a thing of the past in Finland?

62 points by gpresot 9y ago

twic 9y ago
I saw the title and assumed this was an attempt to make Finnish grammar even more difficult.
- wolfgang42 9y ago
  As did I! (It turns out to be about replacing individual curriculum topics--history, mathematics, and so on--with a more integrated learning style.)
  - cassowary 9y ago
    As for me, I understood it immediately. I understand the grammatical term "subject", but I don't know how to read "school subject" as a grammatical term. I would appreciate some help. (in case this is regional: I'm Australian)
    - tuukkah 9y ago
      Now fixed at HN, not in the original article.
- stevekemp 9y ago
  As a recent immigrant to Finland the grammar is hard enough as it is!
- thriftwy 9y ago
  I guess it's only difficult for foreigners, while for the Finns it's obvious.
IdontRememberIt 9y ago
With such a low immigration, the pisa sample tended to be more uniform in Finland which introduced a distortion with other countries having more immigration but a better teaching system. Recent immigration increase has lowered the last Finnish pisa rankings. So, of course, some methods are innovative, but being an example is maybe overrated. Results will be "assessable" only when these kids will have a professional path.
- zurn 9y ago
  I'm sure the problem is tractable statistically, by normalizing some variables related to immigration.
- tuukkah 9y ago
  You are simply mistaken: The immigration increase is so recent and so small compared to the population size that it can't have lowered the country's rankings. Pasi Sahlberg is the expert to listen to: "I don’t believe that the PISA results in Finland have anything to do with the language or the fact that Finland is more homogenous than others[.] Of course Finland has had fewer non-Finnish speakers or children who were born outside of Finland, but that cannot explain the progress in previous PISA studies or the declining results in maths." http://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/finlands_school_system_the_new_nokia/6965192 http://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/finlands_school_system_the... EDIT: Same misconception propagated by BBC in the article here (for "balance"?): "Success has been attributed to a traditionally high regard for teaching and reading, as well as a small, largely homogenous population" How would population size contribute to the averages? Who has attributed? In the BBC archives I can find that claim by some right-wing British think tank.
cbanek 9y ago
I've actually done a similar "integrated" program here in the US. I really have to echo what the article says about great students getting it, while some students aren't sure what to take away from each lesson to bring to the next lesson: > "This way of teaching is great for the brightest children who understand what knowledge they need to take away from an experiment. It allows them the freedom to learn at their own pace and take the next steps when they are ready to," he says. > "But this is not the case for children who are less able to figure it out for themselves and need more guidance. The gap between the brightest and the less able has already begun widening and I am very afraid that this will only get worse". I had this integrated science program at IMSA (http://www.imsa.edu http://www.imsa.edu) in the late 90's. It was certainly interesting. We started off talking about the Yucca Mountain nuclear waste storage site. Overall, it was a fun program, and IMSA is meant to try out new teaching strategies, but I'm not sure how much of a success it would be in all public schools. It is very important to connect various scientific and learning concepts. Sometimes it even makes it easier to learn (physics and calculus are peas and carrots). But there is a certain foundation that also needs to be built up, such as atomic theory and chemistry. Right now we kind of teach school like a layer cake, where each layer is a grade. There's some stuff, and it vaguely builds on each other, but it's not directly connected. But whatever isn't directly connected on that graph is hard to find a use for. That's why it's important to connect concepts and understand how they interact in the world. I do think there's the possibility of a path that is more winding, connecting concepts along the way, but I'm not sure we know what the best path is. Should we focus earlier on math and reading? More science later after basic reading? Right now we seem to more or less equally divide time over subjects, which seems hugely arbitrary.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- Kluny 9y ago
  > "But this is not the case for children who are less able to figure it out for themselves and need more guidance. The gap between the brightest and the less able has already begun widening and I am very afraid that this will only get worse". It's too bad, but doesn't that just mean that the better students have been held back by the previous system and they're finally getting what they need? The slower students need something else, but I hope that the better ones continue getting better education that they can use.
spodek 9y ago
As an adjunct professor who also teaches online independently, I find project-based learning more effective for my classes in leadership, entrepreneurship, and sales. The students seem to agree, sometimes after a transition when they realize the class is about skills more than facts. The students are adults and give reviews like "Absolutely. I would recommend this course not just to peers, but anyone interested in leadership. Honestly, even if you don't care about being a leader, this is the kind of class which can help anyone grow as a person, not only bettering themselves in terms of leadership, but also in terms of self actualization. The social skills you learn in this class have never been taught to me in an academic environment." and "This course teaches leadership not just by reading theory, but actually putting the theory into practice. In most classes we are forced to regurgitate information back to the professor, in this class we are taught to be self-accountable, which is a skill everyone should have. What I learned in this class will stick with me for life. I can't say that about every SPS class. This course was refreshing." The faculty, on the other hand, have a hard time fitting these courses into their subject-based system, independent of the value to the students. It's like universities are asking to be disrupted.
- dilemma 9y ago
  Schools are built on a theory of mass production and we know from the last hundred years that mass production is expensive, slow, and low in quality. See Ford and GM vs Toyota in the mid 20th century. Lean is about integration and removing arbitrary walls between types of knowledge. Hopefully today's Fordist mass production is soon replaced by Finland's lean education system. But remember, it will have nothing to do with iPads.
Aoyagi 9y ago
Sure, the best thing to do when you have one of the best education systems in the world is try to fix it. What could possibly go wrong?
- kbart 9y ago
  The reason why Finland has one of the best education system in the world is precisely the experimentation and non-conforming to the conservative education system. They have very good education specialists, I'm sure they will handle this just fine.

62 points by gpresot 9y ago

twic 9y ago

I saw the title and assumed this was an attempt to make Finnish grammar even more difficult.

wolfgang42 9y ago
As did I! (It turns out to be about replacing individual curriculum topics--history, mathematics, and so on--with a more integrated learning style.)
- cassowary 9y ago
  As for me, I understood it immediately. I understand the grammatical term "subject", but I don't know how to read "school subject" as a grammatical term. I would appreciate some help. (in case this is regional: I'm Australian)
  - tuukkah 9y ago
    Now fixed at HN, not in the original article.
stevekemp 9y ago
As a recent immigrant to Finland the grammar is hard enough as it is!
thriftwy 9y ago
I guess it's only difficult for foreigners, while for the Finns it's obvious.

IdontRememberIt 9y ago

With such a low immigration, the pisa sample tended to be more uniform in Finland which introduced a distortion with other countries having more immigration but a better teaching system. Recent immigration increase has lowered the last Finnish pisa rankings. So, of course, some methods are innovative, but being an example is maybe overrated. Results will be "assessable" only when these kids will have a professional path.

zurn 9y ago
I'm sure the problem is tractable statistically, by normalizing some variables related to immigration.
tuukkah 9y ago
You are simply mistaken: The immigration increase is so recent and so small compared to the population size that it can't have lowered the country's rankings. Pasi Sahlberg is the expert to listen to: "I don’t believe that the PISA results in Finland have anything to do with the language or the fact that Finland is more homogenous than others[.] Of course Finland has had fewer non-Finnish speakers or children who were born outside of Finland, but that cannot explain the progress in previous PISA studies or the declining results in maths." http://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/finlands_school_system_the_new_nokia/6965192 http://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/finlands_school_system_the... EDIT: Same misconception propagated by BBC in the article here (for "balance"?): "Success has been attributed to a traditionally high regard for teaching and reading, as well as a small, largely homogenous population" How would population size contribute to the averages? Who has attributed? In the BBC archives I can find that claim by some right-wing British think tank.

cbanek 9y ago

I've actually done a similar "integrated" program here in the US. I really have to echo what the article says about great students getting it, while some students aren't sure what to take away from each lesson to bring to the next lesson: > "This way of teaching is great for the brightest children who understand what knowledge they need to take away from an experiment. It allows them the freedom to learn at their own pace and take the next steps when they are ready to," he says. > "But this is not the case for children who are less able to figure it out for themselves and need more guidance. The gap between the brightest and the less able has already begun widening and I am very afraid that this will only get worse". I had this integrated science program at IMSA (http://www.imsa.edu http://www.imsa.edu) in the late 90's. It was certainly interesting. We started off talking about the Yucca Mountain nuclear waste storage site. Overall, it was a fun program, and IMSA is meant to try out new teaching strategies, but I'm not sure how much of a success it would be in all public schools. It is very important to connect various scientific and learning concepts. Sometimes it even makes it easier to learn (physics and calculus are peas and carrots). But there is a certain foundation that also needs to be built up, such as atomic theory and chemistry. Right now we kind of teach school like a layer cake, where each layer is a grade. There's some stuff, and it vaguely builds on each other, but it's not directly connected. But whatever isn't directly connected on that graph is hard to find a use for. That's why it's important to connect concepts and understand how they interact in the world. I do think there's the possibility of a path that is more winding, connecting concepts along the way, but I'm not sure we know what the best path is. Should we focus earlier on math and reading? More science later after basic reading? Right now we seem to more or less equally divide time over subjects, which seems hugely arbitrary.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Kluny 9y ago
> "But this is not the case for children who are less able to figure it out for themselves and need more guidance. The gap between the brightest and the less able has already begun widening and I am very afraid that this will only get worse". It's too bad, but doesn't that just mean that the better students have been held back by the previous system and they're finally getting what they need? The slower students need something else, but I hope that the better ones continue getting better education that they can use.

spodek 9y ago

As an adjunct professor who also teaches online independently, I find project-based learning more effective for my classes in leadership, entrepreneurship, and sales. The students seem to agree, sometimes after a transition when they realize the class is about skills more than facts. The students are adults and give reviews like "Absolutely. I would recommend this course not just to peers, but anyone interested in leadership. Honestly, even if you don't care about being a leader, this is the kind of class which can help anyone grow as a person, not only bettering themselves in terms of leadership, but also in terms of self actualization. The social skills you learn in this class have never been taught to me in an academic environment." and "This course teaches leadership not just by reading theory, but actually putting the theory into practice. In most classes we are forced to regurgitate information back to the professor, in this class we are taught to be self-accountable, which is a skill everyone should have. What I learned in this class will stick with me for life. I can't say that about every SPS class. This course was refreshing." The faculty, on the other hand, have a hard time fitting these courses into their subject-based system, independent of the value to the students. It's like universities are asking to be disrupted.

dilemma 9y ago
Schools are built on a theory of mass production and we know from the last hundred years that mass production is expensive, slow, and low in quality. See Ford and GM vs Toyota in the mid 20th century. Lean is about integration and removing arbitrary walls between types of knowledge. Hopefully today's Fordist mass production is soon replaced by Finland's lean education system. But remember, it will have nothing to do with iPads.

Aoyagi 9y ago

Sure, the best thing to do when you have one of the best education systems in the world is try to fix it. What could possibly go wrong?

kbart 9y ago
The reason why Finland has one of the best education system in the world is precisely the experimentation and non-conforming to the conservative education system. They have very good education specialists, I'm sure they will handle this just fine.