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The mood affiliation is strong here... do you feel as strongly about the rule of law when it comes to, I don't know, medical marihuana (the smoking of which is
by elbasti 9y ago
The mood affiliation is strong here... do you feel as strongly about the rule of law when it comes to, I don't know, medical marihuana (the smoking of which is a federal crime, since it's a schedule I drug).
The analogy is not entirely facetious: immigration is--like pot--a crime with real economic benefit, and where any negative externalities are exacerbated by knee-jerk prohibition. Take as an example wage depression due to immigration. The less that undocumented immigrants can report unfair labor practices, the more they are likely to be exploited for extra-depressive wages.
The same dynamic is present, for example, when it comes to prostitution (also a crime). If you punish the prostitute instead of the john, prostitutes are more likely to be abused, exacerbating the negative consequences of prostitution.
(Again, the analogy goes deeper: the answer to immigration is the same as prostitution or drugs or whatever: _tax the externalities_. If you really think that some honduran woman scrubbing toilets for less than minimum wage at a motel 6 is "bad for america", then you should jus _tax her_).
One other comment: you seem quite upset about the use of the phrase "undocumented immigrant" instead of "illegal." There are Really Good reasons why the first term is preferred:
1. Not all undocumented immigrants are criminals. The only criminal act is crossing the border without permission. Overstaying a visa, or coming here as a child, is emphatically not criminal. Yes, it's a deportable condition, but not a criminal one. Undocumented seems to be a better description of that situation--and unless someone has been tried, how do you know?
2. Semantics matter. Undocumented immigrants have rights, just like all people in America. To refer to a human as as being "illegal" anchors the situation in a way which makes it easier to treat them in a way where those rights are violated, and _no one cares_. For example, alleged illegal immigrants are not offered counsel in immigration courts. Flagrant violation of their sixth amendment rights. It somehow seems to be ok in the public consciousness because they are "illegal."
I'm not advocating for open borders, or for amnesty or whatever. I'm just asking you to think, critically, about the situation, and leave your mood affiliation aside.
- briandear 9y agoSomeone working without a US social security number is working illegally. Someone failing to pay income taxes is committing a crime. Filing taxes under an incorrect social security number is also a crime. Unless the "undocumented" are actually not doing anything, they are most likely committing many other crimes including tax fraud, identity theft, tax evasion. "Undocumented" is a euphemism. Illegal alien is the correct legal term. And let's stop using "immigrant" to refer to illegal aliens. That is an insult to the thousands of legal immigrants. Undocumented immigrant is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist. Let's not legitimize illegal immigration by wrapping it into benign terminology.
- mrunkel 9y agoHow do you figure that undocumented immigrants don't pay taxes? Since employers are required to withhold said taxes in paychecks. In any case, let's use some of this energy to making immigration policy that works and we'll remove all the undocumented immigrants.
- panda88888 9y agoI agree wholeheartedly that we should reform immigration policy. Personally I don't care if the undocumented immigrants are paying taxes or not. But as a former legal immigrant and now naturalized citizen, I would really appreciate the government and civil rights advocates to focus more on the legal immigrants and less on the undocumented. I have a friend with PhD degree in biochemistry on F1 visa, and now on OPT. He's been here for probably 9 or 10 years, starting from undergraduate to PhD program. It's difficult to not view DACA with distain when he gets less protection and privileges than those that has not gone through the legal process. Especially with CA offering (not sure if still just talks) in-state tuition while he has to pay for full out-of-state, not allowed to work (with limited exception to working on campus), and only 1 year of OPT and playing the H1-B lottery for work authorization. I would support DACA and similar programs iff all legal immigrants currently on the wait list gets precedence over undocumented immigrants. My simple proposal was to grant whatever privilege the undocumented were to receive to those on the wait list to empty it, and place the undocumented immigrants into the now empty waitlist, with the understanding that they star with blank slate to go through the legal way, but may not stay in the US if the legal immigration path they are seeking doesn't allow them to stay in the US while pursuing legal residence.
- lawsandmorals 9y agoCrime doesn't mean wrong, and wrong doesn't mean crime.
- panda88888 9y agoNot the OP, but responding to a couple of points. Regarding medical marijuana, I believe the right approach is to change the law, not to flaunt the law. And we've seen that already in many states legalizing marijuana. Regarding the use of the word illegal, it is the proper legal terminology. An alien is classified as either legal or illegal, depending on their status to enter and stay in the US. The legal/illegal refers to their alien status, not the person. And this ties into the third point. The reason immigration court doesn't provide counsel is just as you've stated--it is a civil matter, not criminal. Right to attorney doesn't apply to civil cases. On the converse, make immigration law violations a criminal act, and the accused has right to counsel.