5 ms·

An undocumented immigrant? So she was legally in the country, but with paperwork incomplete? Or a refugee? Oh no, they mean illegal immigrant - in this case, s

An undocumented immigrant? So she was legally in the country, but with paperwork incomplete? Or a refugee? Oh no, they mean illegal immigrant - in this case, someone who violated the law to make more money. Got it. Every time I see the term "undocumented immigrant" I am horrified at how easily people will thoughtlessly toss away the rule of law to serve their own self-indulgent empathy. Mexico today has more GDP/capita than New Zealand did in 1990. There's no justification for encouraging the human trafficking and dangerous cross-desert trips (often ending in death or rape or robbery) this way. Immigration should be orderly and safe. If someone wants everybody on Earth to have free access to America, they should campaign to make that the law, and face the real consequences. This "let it be illegal but keep the border-jumpers as our empathy pets" stuff is self-indulgent and self-defeating on so many levels. Ugh.

dsacco 9y ago
> Mexico today has a higher GDP than New Zealand did in 1990. ??? What an oddly specific comment...and I don't think it helps your point.
elbasti 9y ago
The mood affiliation is strong here... do you feel as strongly about the rule of law when it comes to, I don't know, medical marihuana (the smoking of which is a federal crime, since it's a schedule I drug). The analogy is not entirely facetious: immigration is--like pot--a crime with real economic benefit, and where any negative externalities are exacerbated by knee-jerk prohibition. Take as an example wage depression due to immigration. The less that undocumented immigrants can report unfair labor practices, the more they are likely to be exploited for extra-depressive wages. The same dynamic is present, for example, when it comes to prostitution (also a crime). If you punish the prostitute instead of the john, prostitutes are more likely to be abused, exacerbating the negative consequences of prostitution. (Again, the analogy goes deeper: the answer to immigration is the same as prostitution or drugs or whatever: _tax the externalities_. If you really think that some honduran woman scrubbing toilets for less than minimum wage at a motel 6 is "bad for america", then you should jus _tax her_). One other comment: you seem quite upset about the use of the phrase "undocumented immigrant" instead of "illegal." There are Really Good reasons why the first term is preferred: 1. Not all undocumented immigrants are criminals. The only criminal act is crossing the border without permission. Overstaying a visa, or coming here as a child, is emphatically not criminal. Yes, it's a deportable condition, but not a criminal one. Undocumented seems to be a better description of that situation--and unless someone has been tried, how do you know? 2. Semantics matter. Undocumented immigrants have rights, just like all people in America. To refer to a human as as being "illegal" anchors the situation in a way which makes it easier to treat them in a way where those rights are violated, and _no one cares_. For example, alleged illegal immigrants are not offered counsel in immigration courts. Flagrant violation of their sixth amendment rights. It somehow seems to be ok in the public consciousness because they are "illegal." I'm not advocating for open borders, or for amnesty or whatever. I'm just asking you to think, critically, about the situation, and leave your mood affiliation aside.
- briandear 9y ago
  Someone working without a US social security number is working illegally. Someone failing to pay income taxes is committing a crime. Filing taxes under an incorrect social security number is also a crime. Unless the "undocumented" are actually not doing anything, they are most likely committing many other crimes including tax fraud, identity theft, tax evasion. "Undocumented" is a euphemism. Illegal alien is the correct legal term. And let's stop using "immigrant" to refer to illegal aliens. That is an insult to the thousands of legal immigrants. Undocumented immigrant is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist. Let's not legitimize illegal immigration by wrapping it into benign terminology.
  - mrunkel 9y ago
    How do you figure that undocumented immigrants don't pay taxes? Since employers are required to withhold said taxes in paychecks. In any case, let's use some of this energy to making immigration policy that works and we'll remove all the undocumented immigrants.
    - panda88888 9y ago
      I agree wholeheartedly that we should reform immigration policy. Personally I don't care if the undocumented immigrants are paying taxes or not. But as a former legal immigrant and now naturalized citizen, I would really appreciate the government and civil rights advocates to focus more on the legal immigrants and less on the undocumented. I have a friend with PhD degree in biochemistry on F1 visa, and now on OPT. He's been here for probably 9 or 10 years, starting from undergraduate to PhD program. It's difficult to not view DACA with distain when he gets less protection and privileges than those that has not gone through the legal process. Especially with CA offering (not sure if still just talks) in-state tuition while he has to pay for full out-of-state, not allowed to work (with limited exception to working on campus), and only 1 year of OPT and playing the H1-B lottery for work authorization. I would support DACA and similar programs iff all legal immigrants currently on the wait list gets precedence over undocumented immigrants. My simple proposal was to grant whatever privilege the undocumented were to receive to those on the wait list to empty it, and place the undocumented immigrants into the now empty waitlist, with the understanding that they star with blank slate to go through the legal way, but may not stay in the US if the legal immigration path they are seeking doesn't allow them to stay in the US while pursuing legal residence.
dosgonlogs 9y ago
"self Indulgent empathy" Wtf is that? I can't help but say, that is the stupidest thing I have read all day.
ykler 9y ago
Hi, maybe I am one of the people who you would say thinks, "Let it be illegal, but let's keep the border-jumpers as our empathy pets." Let me try to explain the thinking (which, by the way, has nothing to do with some sort of paternalistic moral smugness, as you seem to be suggesting). With immigration, there is a situation where (at least in my opinion) it is not morally wrong for anyone to illegally immigrate to the US for economic reasons, yet it may be that the US should not allow unfettered immigration. It is true that in some cases a behavior can be morally wrong only because it is illegal (e.g., violating corporate disclosure requirements), but making immigration illegal is not enough to make it wrong because most illegal immigrants have compelling reasons to immigrate and are not doing any clear harm (not shooting border guards to get across, for instance). It is true that, as a general principle, we are better off if we can arrange that only morally wrong behaviors are outlawed because that somehow makes people more respectful of the law, but in the case of immigration, it isn't possible without allowing unfettered immigration, and that may be too high a price to pay. What we can do to improve alignment is to allow anyone who manages to come to the US and remain for a certain period of time (say five years), and perhaps to meet some assimilation targets (like learning English), to stay and ultimately become a citizen. Then it will be more reasonable for law enforcement to aggressively pursue illegal/undocumented people, and the "rule of law" can be stronger.
- TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
  > What we can do to improve alignment is to allow anyone who manages to come to the US and remain for a certain period of time... to stay and ultimately become a citizen. This is dangerous, in my opinion. It gives foreigners an incentive to come here illegally and stay for a long time, during which they work lower-class jobs for well under market value. That displaces American workers, lowers wages, and gives the foreigners a reason to come here instead of working on building industries in their home country, thus maintaining the issues that lead them to want to come here in the first place.
Baeocystin 9y ago
It's worth noting that the majority (~60%) of illegal immigrants arrive legally and simply overstay their visas. Also, Mexicans no longer make up the majority of the undocumented. Not arguing for or against anything, just putting some numbers out that I recently learned, and found surprising myself. Should be an easy google-verify if you're interested.
- coolspot 9y ago
  First result in google says Mexicans make 59% of illegal immigrants in U.S., per wikipedia - 62%.
  - Baeocystin 9y ago
    It's a recent shift. I found the link where I first read about it. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/27/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/27/5-facts-abou...

dsacco 9y ago

> Mexico today has a higher GDP than New Zealand did in 1990. ??? What an oddly specific comment...and I don't think it helps your point.

elbasti 9y ago

The mood affiliation is strong here... do you feel as strongly about the rule of law when it comes to, I don't know, medical marihuana (the smoking of which is a federal crime, since it's a schedule I drug). The analogy is not entirely facetious: immigration is--like pot--a crime with real economic benefit, and where any negative externalities are exacerbated by knee-jerk prohibition. Take as an example wage depression due to immigration. The less that undocumented immigrants can report unfair labor practices, the more they are likely to be exploited for extra-depressive wages. The same dynamic is present, for example, when it comes to prostitution (also a crime). If you punish the prostitute instead of the john, prostitutes are more likely to be abused, exacerbating the negative consequences of prostitution. (Again, the analogy goes deeper: the answer to immigration is the same as prostitution or drugs or whatever: _tax the externalities_. If you really think that some honduran woman scrubbing toilets for less than minimum wage at a motel 6 is "bad for america", then you should jus _tax her_). One other comment: you seem quite upset about the use of the phrase "undocumented immigrant" instead of "illegal." There are Really Good reasons why the first term is preferred: 1. Not all undocumented immigrants are criminals. The only criminal act is crossing the border without permission. Overstaying a visa, or coming here as a child, is emphatically not criminal. Yes, it's a deportable condition, but not a criminal one. Undocumented seems to be a better description of that situation--and unless someone has been tried, how do you know? 2. Semantics matter. Undocumented immigrants have rights, just like all people in America. To refer to a human as as being "illegal" anchors the situation in a way which makes it easier to treat them in a way where those rights are violated, and _no one cares_. For example, alleged illegal immigrants are not offered counsel in immigration courts. Flagrant violation of their sixth amendment rights. It somehow seems to be ok in the public consciousness because they are "illegal." I'm not advocating for open borders, or for amnesty or whatever. I'm just asking you to think, critically, about the situation, and leave your mood affiliation aside.

briandear 9y ago
Someone working without a US social security number is working illegally. Someone failing to pay income taxes is committing a crime. Filing taxes under an incorrect social security number is also a crime. Unless the "undocumented" are actually not doing anything, they are most likely committing many other crimes including tax fraud, identity theft, tax evasion. "Undocumented" is a euphemism. Illegal alien is the correct legal term. And let's stop using "immigrant" to refer to illegal aliens. That is an insult to the thousands of legal immigrants. Undocumented immigrant is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist. Let's not legitimize illegal immigration by wrapping it into benign terminology.
- mrunkel 9y ago
  How do you figure that undocumented immigrants don't pay taxes? Since employers are required to withhold said taxes in paychecks. In any case, let's use some of this energy to making immigration policy that works and we'll remove all the undocumented immigrants.
  - panda88888 9y ago
    I agree wholeheartedly that we should reform immigration policy. Personally I don't care if the undocumented immigrants are paying taxes or not. But as a former legal immigrant and now naturalized citizen, I would really appreciate the government and civil rights advocates to focus more on the legal immigrants and less on the undocumented. I have a friend with PhD degree in biochemistry on F1 visa, and now on OPT. He's been here for probably 9 or 10 years, starting from undergraduate to PhD program. It's difficult to not view DACA with distain when he gets less protection and privileges than those that has not gone through the legal process. Especially with CA offering (not sure if still just talks) in-state tuition while he has to pay for full out-of-state, not allowed to work (with limited exception to working on campus), and only 1 year of OPT and playing the H1-B lottery for work authorization. I would support DACA and similar programs iff all legal immigrants currently on the wait list gets precedence over undocumented immigrants. My simple proposal was to grant whatever privilege the undocumented were to receive to those on the wait list to empty it, and place the undocumented immigrants into the now empty waitlist, with the understanding that they star with blank slate to go through the legal way, but may not stay in the US if the legal immigration path they are seeking doesn't allow them to stay in the US while pursuing legal residence.

dosgonlogs 9y ago

"self Indulgent empathy" Wtf is that? I can't help but say, that is the stupidest thing I have read all day.

ykler 9y ago

Hi, maybe I am one of the people who you would say thinks, "Let it be illegal, but let's keep the border-jumpers as our empathy pets." Let me try to explain the thinking (which, by the way, has nothing to do with some sort of paternalistic moral smugness, as you seem to be suggesting). With immigration, there is a situation where (at least in my opinion) it is not morally wrong for anyone to illegally immigrate to the US for economic reasons, yet it may be that the US should not allow unfettered immigration. It is true that in some cases a behavior can be morally wrong only because it is illegal (e.g., violating corporate disclosure requirements), but making immigration illegal is not enough to make it wrong because most illegal immigrants have compelling reasons to immigrate and are not doing any clear harm (not shooting border guards to get across, for instance). It is true that, as a general principle, we are better off if we can arrange that only morally wrong behaviors are outlawed because that somehow makes people more respectful of the law, but in the case of immigration, it isn't possible without allowing unfettered immigration, and that may be too high a price to pay. What we can do to improve alignment is to allow anyone who manages to come to the US and remain for a certain period of time (say five years), and perhaps to meet some assimilation targets (like learning English), to stay and ultimately become a citizen. Then it will be more reasonable for law enforcement to aggressively pursue illegal/undocumented people, and the "rule of law" can be stronger.

TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
> What we can do to improve alignment is to allow anyone who manages to come to the US and remain for a certain period of time... to stay and ultimately become a citizen. This is dangerous, in my opinion. It gives foreigners an incentive to come here illegally and stay for a long time, during which they work lower-class jobs for well under market value. That displaces American workers, lowers wages, and gives the foreigners a reason to come here instead of working on building industries in their home country, thus maintaining the issues that lead them to want to come here in the first place.

Baeocystin 9y ago

It's worth noting that the majority (~60%) of illegal immigrants arrive legally and simply overstay their visas. Also, Mexicans no longer make up the majority of the undocumented. Not arguing for or against anything, just putting some numbers out that I recently learned, and found surprising myself. Should be an easy google-verify if you're interested.

coolspot 9y ago
First result in google says Mexicans make 59% of illegal immigrants in U.S., per wikipedia - 62%.
- Baeocystin 9y ago
  It's a recent shift. I found the link where I first read about it. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/27/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/27/5-facts-abou...