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Is neuroenhancement by noninvasive brain stimulation a net zero-sum proposition?
- PaulHoule 9y agoThat argument would lead to the proposition that any effort to improve cognition is a net zero-sum proposition.
- jonnathanson 9y agoTo get a little meta for a second, do we have a universally accepted, value-neutral, standard idea of exactly what we mean when we say cognition? Individual tests might set different parameters and pay attention to different mechanics. Or do they? To put my question a different way: how confident are we in our current map of the system? I'm asking as a legitimately curious layperson. Perhaps this comment is naive, and if so, I'm admitting to my naivete in advance.
- hprotagonist 9y ago>do we have a universally accepted, standard idea of exactly what we mean when we say cognition? no. (sensory neuroscience guy here)
- notduncansmith 9y agoIt's awfully tangled up with determinism and incompatibilism, neither of which are universally accepted. This makes it difficult to create a definition that is both meaningful and not controversial.
- Banthum 9y agoNo, there is no single universal neutral standard of cognition. Memory tasks are different from mental rotation tasks, which are different from emotion-reading tasks, etc. But, it turns out that performance at a huge variety of sub-tasks is highly correlated. E.g. reaction time (catch a falling ruler as fast as you can) correlates with ability to solve math problems, which correlates with ability to control impulses. This is why IQ, as a general measure that covers a wide variety of tasks, is so useful. (Of course, that's not to say IQ covers everything about cognition in some absolute way; it doesn't measure ability to balance on a beam, for example, AFAIK).
- eternalban 9y agoI think a definition of 'cognition' at the hardware level (wet matter brain) would depend on a conjectured model of 'consciousness' to distinguish it from the more clearly definable 'sensing'. A simple model of (higher) consciousness could be that it is simply the 'state of the brain'. Sensation would be an almost axiomatic as the 'pattern of state change for specific stimuli' whereas 'thought' is 'pattern of state change invariant of stimuli'. Cognition could then be defined as 'sensation that [evokes] thought'.
- panic 9y agoGiving someone pencil and paper or access to the internet will improve their cognition. The key difference is that these improvements happen outside the brain.
- matart 9y agoCould someone explain this to a layman like myself, please
- taneq 9y agoAlso a layman, but from my reading of the abstract, the net zero sum model is saying that ultimately the brain does about as well as it's going to, given its physical constraints. It's the equivalent of "no matter how much you overclock your CPU, you'll still be limited by thermal dissipation."
- Robotbeat 9y agoIf it's thermal dissipation (which is believable, as Adderall increases your body temperature), that can be solved artificially: wear a wet towel, increase air conditioning, or wear a cold pack.
- terminado 9y agoIn other words, does this amount to abuse of an already maximally efficient organ, resulting in short term gains in exchange for what amounts to injury or perhaps chronic subclinical injuries? From the abstract: based on the assumption that brain resources are subjected to the physical principle of conservation of energy Which is to say, nothing material is added to the equation, and thus, nothing useful is actually extracted. Conceptually, the idea is to question whether we're really just burning the candle at both ends, to get more light. Compare to steroid abuse in athletes, resulting in a statistically significant shortening of lifespan.
- thriftwy 9y agoI doubt this is true. There are smarter people and there are simpler ones. I guess they're in the same ballpark WRT energy usage. Could you turn the latter into the former? Why not?
- Mahn 9y agoBut that's a different question, isn't it? We are talking about "overclocking" the brain, so to speak, not necessarily making one smarter or dumber. The speculation here (if I understand correctly) is that "overclocking" the brain has a cost somewhere, but that doesn't imply that smarter people are running "overclocked" brains per se.
- thriftwy 9y agoSo they're saying, they can improve my neural function by also making me burn more calories? Market cap 1T.
- pharrlax 9y agoYou know what they say about the candle that burns twice as bright, though
- sillysaurus3 9y ago"Let's invent a lightbulb."
- mikeash 9y agoThe candle that burns twice as bright illuminates things twice as strongly and definitely has no downsides whatsoever which is why it's the top seller in the candle industry. Did I remember that right?
- nine_k 9y agoIt consumes fuel twice as fast? Fuel is cheap. If there any evidence that intense mental loads somehow wear down the brain, or the body as a whole, any faster? If anything, I only know that intense mental loads stave off the onset of Alzheimer's.
- arcticbull 9y agoAnimals up to rhesus monkeys which reduce their caloric intake have reduced incidence of age-related and of all-cause mortality [1], and this is conserved - at least - in rats, mice, fish, flies, worms and yeast [2]. While the fuel itself may not be expensive, there is evidence that consuming/using it is anything but. These studies are for obvious reasons difficult to conduct in humans, though I would be very surprised if they weren't under way, and time will tell. [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms4557 https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms4557 [2] http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/361.full http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/361.full
- jjallen 9y agoDated: "2014 Jan 15"
- _tb 9y agoit's a paper, not a javascript framework
- amputect 9y agoThis is a good and funny reply. Also, it accidentally led me down a fun rabbit hole and I ended up trying to learn about the oldest scientific works are that are still regularly cited today. Answers: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C48&as_ylo=1500&as_yhi=1750 https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C48&as_yl... is a good starting point. Euler's paper demonstrating that there is no solution to the Königsberg bridge problem and inventing graph theory in the process is one of the more recognizable (to me) papers, but there's a lot of truly interesting, foundational work there. My wife guessed that Newton would be on there, but I couldn't easily turn him up. I'm probably just bad with Google scholar, or maybe it's so foundational that nobody bothers to provide a citation for e.g the very existence of _calculus_ or _gravity_ My original question was "the oldest still-cited scientific work") but I relaxed my criteria due to poorly defined definitions on 'still-cited' and 'scientific'. Still an interesting way to spend some time, so thanks for the digression!
- suneilp 9y agoI got lost in that paper trying to find out the reason that lead to asking if neuroenhancement is a zero-sum proposition. Can anyone point it out to me.
- JoshMnem 9y agoSee also: "Popular electric brain stimulation method used to boost brainpower is detrimental to IQ scores" https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/05/150505152140.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/05/150505152140.h...
- Houshalter 9y agoInteresting. How permanent is the effect? Does it just decrease scores while using it. Or is the decrease in IQ long term.
- JoshMnem 9y agoI don't know, but I would stay away from it. Maybe try exercise instead. http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/regular-exercise-changes-brain-improve-memory-thinking-skills-201404097110 http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/regular-exercise-changes-... https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/02/17/which-type-of-exercise-is-best-for-the-brain/ https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/02/17/which-type-of-exer...
- jabgrabdthrow 9y agoI guess this tech will only be used by a strange niche group that wants the average intelligence of the world to decrease then, huh. Oh well!
- throwanem 9y agoDirect current across the brain. Really. I mean, in my younger or attractive days, I fell in for a while with a bunch of kink players who for safety reasons wouldn't even put DC across their et cetera, but other people consider it just fine for their actual brains. Sure. Ever get that odd morning moment where you're not sure you woke up in the same worldline where you fell asleep? I think this one might be a Cronenberg film, but hey, at least I'm probably not actually in it.
- jksmith 9y agoYeah but you know where a man's brain is.
- spangry 9y agoIsn't it false to assume the human body (and the human brain) is a 'closed system'? This is going to sound mighty stupid, but doesn't the fact that we ingest variable amounts of food (i.e. energy) suggest that in surplus situations this energy can be used 'on the spot', rather than converted to long-term storage (i.e. fat)?
- chrisweekly 9y agoWhy run electrical current through your brain (which seems like a bad idea on general principle)? Audio waves are demonstrably effective - not just for stimulation / focus, but adjustable for other cogntitive states, like relaxation and sleep. See [Brain.FM](https://brain.fm https://brain.fm).
- CamperBob2 9y agoI remember playing games like Falcons and Hard Hat Mack on my Apple II+ as a kid. Those two games in particular were cracked copies. As was fairly common in the Apple II warez scene, pressing the reset button during gameplay would dump you into the Monitor prompt. You could access locations $C050 and $C057 to turn fullscreen graphics mode back on, and type G to resume execution from the point of interruption. The details were more complex than my recollection at this late date, but that was the basic idea. What was cool about this was that you could also alter random values in memory from the Monitor before resuming the game. Of course, without the source code it was tough to say what effects a given change might have. Usually nothing would happen after modifying a few arbitrary memory values, but sometimes I'd get lucky and gameplay would resume in an interesting, undocumented way. Fewer enemies, more powerful weapons, access to an otherwise-unreachable level, wacky graphical effects. Occasionally I'd get really lucky and stumble upon a way to jack up my score to 999,999,999 or whatever. When that happened, I'd hit reset again, reboot, and dump the graphics RAM to my printer for guaranteed bragging rights on the school bus the next day. Frequently, though, after altering something at random, the game would just crash. And that seems a lot like what you're doing by running electric current through your brain.