6 ms·

"If you want to experience poverty, just do nothing and it will come." I know lots of people - the working poor - who are doing a hell of a lot more than nothi

"If you want to experience poverty, just do nothing and it will come." I know lots of people - the working poor - who are doing a hell of a lot more than nothing, and poverty still comes.

walterk 19y ago
Nod. If I start life tied to a load of bricks, and you start in a Ferrari, I can do a helluva lot more than you and still get nowhere. The history of slavery should be ample proof of that. It's one thing to say that "We should ask what are the causes of wealth and try to recreate and reproduce them." It's another thing entirely to deny that there are no structural, sociological barriers to escaping poverty.
- noonespecial 19y ago
  You'd be astonished at how many who start out with the Ferrari wreck it in short order and how many who start out with bricks become very strong because of it. People who start out with wealth seldom create wealth. In the best cases, they usually just administer it. Its the people who start out with the bricks that seem to end up creating the wealth. Slavery and poverty are different economic relationships altogether. Equating them is usually rhetorical hyperbole and if taken seriously, leads to some very wrong conclusions.
  - mattmaroon 19y ago
    >>You'd be astonished at how many who start out with the Ferrari wreck it in short order and how many who start out with bricks become very strong because of it.<< Outlying cases are irrelevant. Of course people overcome the odds in both directions. But given equal driving ability, the Ferrari will always win the race, take the prize money, and buy their children a Ferrari. >>People who start out with wealth seldom create wealth.<< What is the basis of that statement? Bill Gates was born to a very wealthy family. Warren Buffet was born to a stockbroker-turned-Congressman, so definitely at least upper middle class. Carlos Slim Helu has been quoted saying "I came from a wealthy family. I have always had money." Seems the top three wealth-generators in the world were born wealthy. They attended Harvard, Columbia, and the university consistently ranked the best in Latin America, respectively. The only thing I'm astonished at is that there are people who have so little understanding of how the world works that they think poverty and wealth are not both self-perpetuating.
    - asdflkj 19y ago
      Only the real world is not a race and there is no prize money. If you own a big factory, you get richer not because God gives you a prize for having a bigger factory than everyone else, but because your factory creates wealth, out of nothing. Wealth does tend to perpetuate itself, as in the above example, but this is hardly lamentable. And "poverty perpetuates itself" is basically a bombastic way of saying "lack of wealth doesn't, in and of itself, create more wealth", which is natural and could never be otherwise. Of course, that's if we ignore the psychological component of it. But what can you do about that? Go into people's homes and tell them to stop being such feckless idiots?
    - Hexstream 19y ago
      ">>People who start out with wealth seldom create wealth.<< What is the basis of that statement? Bill Gates was born to a very wealthy family." I'm pretty sure Bill Gates made more cash than he created wealth. Those are orthogonal concepts. It's possible to make cash without creating wealth or indeed, destroying it (ex: "successful" spammer that destroys the value of email). It's also possible to create lots of wealth without making money (the example is left as an exercise for the reader).
      - cstejerean 19y ago
        About the only way to make money without creating wealth is to steal it from somebody else. Typically when somebody pays you for something you did, it's because they'd rather have your service or product than the cash they paid for it. Typically this means you created something valuable (or that the dollar is depreciating so quickly everyone's eager to get rid of it, but more on this later). The spammer created value to the companies advertising and more importantly created a whole market for spam filtering solutions (the same way virus writers created a huge anti-virus market, to the extent that some wonder if a lot of viruses are not actually written the AV vendors themselves).
        emmett 19y ago
        This is the broken window fallacy. Making a "market" in window repairs by smashing windows doesn't create wealth.
  - walterk 19y ago
    >>You'd be astonished at how many who start out with the Ferrari wreck it in short order and how many who start out with bricks become very strong because of it. I had a general idea of how many belong to the former and latter categories, so I'm not astonished. The statistical data supports my point. http://www.economicmobility.org/ http://www.economicmobility.org/ >>People who start out with wealth seldom create wealth. In the best cases, they usually just administer it. Its the people who start out with the bricks that seem to end up creating the wealth. This isn't just about starting off with wealth. My Ferrari metaphor is more about having the repertoire of values and skills needed to become wealthy in a place like the U.S. rather than simply being endowed with money. You're vastly more likely to do well in life if you have parents who spend time with you teaching you to read, making sure you do your homework, provide emotional support, and instill values of hard work and success than you are if you have parents, a parent, or no parents who do none of those things. The late John Ogbu studied why the children of affluent African American parents who went to excellent schools were much more likely to underperform academically relative to their peers, and discovered that parental disengagement was a major factor. http://www.hepg.org/her/abstract/38 http://www.hepg.org/her/abstract/38 Sometimes people manage to acquire the necessary values and thus the skills necessary to do well, despite starting off in adverse conditions. But they're the exceptions, and were psychologically and sociologically positioned to be that way. So unfortunately they can't be used as examples demonstrating that "anybody" can overcome adversity. >>Slavery and poverty are different economic relationships altogether. Equating them is usually rhetorical hyperbole and if taken seriously, leads to some very wrong conclusions. It's not exactly a stretch to say that the enslaved have typically been poor on account of their being slaves, is it? And I never equated slavery and poverty[1]: I used slavery as an obvious example of how you can have the deck overwhelmingly stacked against you. 1. I'm resisting the urge to say, "Anyone who says or implies that I equated them is themselves engaging in rhetorical hyperbole." :)
    - noonespecial 19y ago
      Sorry, I guess I took the slavery example to mean that this was a means to have the deck stacked financially against you in the context of rich vs. poor. Yes, being born a slave has historically been an insurmountable barrier to wealth. It's not exactly a stretch to say that the enslaved have typically been poor on account of their being slaves, is it? What I really wanted to drive home is that slaves are neither poor nor rich. These concepts are based on the ownership of property. Slaves are property and are forbidden to own property. Within the framework of the law, it is possible to escape poverty, not so with slavery. When politicians say that the poor are "slaves" to the rich or that poverty is a new kind of slavery, its a clean miss and usually indicates a rather ugly agenda hiding beneath.
deleted 19y ago
[deleted]
mynameishere 19y ago
I know lots of people Just wondering--do you really know "lots of people" who are among the "working poor"? I come from Appalachia and have known--genuinely, no bullshit here--lots of "working poor" and can't honestly say that there was some systematic conspiracy to hold them down, rough them up, prevent them from rising, etc. Fact is: There are a lot of people living in the lap of luxury--luxury measured by creature comforts--who in any other age would be lucky, yes lucky, to spend 12 hours a day behind a horse's ass. The real reason for people staying in the lower ranks is exactly what we already know: They have some dysfunction. Perhaps a lack of intelligence, or an excess of impulse, or simply a chronic inability to show up to work on time. The latter might suprise you, as it hardly matters if programmers get up at 8 or 9 or 10, but in low-end jobs, one of the big problems among "trouble employees" is simply their unwillingness to follow a schedule. Who's to blame?
- david927 19y ago
  There are lots of examples of poor people who are hard working and still poor, and lots of examples of wealthy people who fell into it. There is no moral value to wealth and to say so not only insults our intelligence but attempts to justify terrible injustices.
  - deleted 19y ago
    [deleted]
  - Prrometheus 19y ago
    At the same time, many people (we'll call them "left-wing") claim that there is no agency behind wealth or poverty, and that therefore we should punish the "lucky" rich people to help the "unlucky" poor. This attitude is utterly simplistic and destructive in a society when taken to the extreme (the left-wing tends to be extreme).
    - aquateen 19y ago
      "punish the rich"... "the left-wing tends to be extreme"; this is just blatant partisanship. There is nothing to support, just opinion... what productive conversation could start this way? This is why politics here is dangerous.
pchristensen 19y ago
I'm surprised that in a group as logical as YCNews, no one called him on this. Just because doing nothing leads to poverty doesn't mean it's the only way to get to poverty, or that doing something will get you out of it. It's just one path that doesn't imply anything about the other paths. All the talk of bricks and Ferrari's are arguments about a point that wasn't made.
- deleted 19y ago
  [deleted]

"If you want to experience poverty, just do nothing and it will come." I know lots of people - the working poor - who are doing a hell of a lot more than nothing, and poverty still comes.

walterk 19y ago

Nod. If I start life tied to a load of bricks, and you start in a Ferrari, I can do a helluva lot more than you and still get nowhere. The history of slavery should be ample proof of that. It's one thing to say that "We should ask what are the causes of wealth and try to recreate and reproduce them." It's another thing entirely to deny that there are no structural, sociological barriers to escaping poverty.

noonespecial 19y ago
You'd be astonished at how many who start out with the Ferrari wreck it in short order and how many who start out with bricks become very strong because of it. People who start out with wealth seldom create wealth. In the best cases, they usually just administer it. Its the people who start out with the bricks that seem to end up creating the wealth. Slavery and poverty are different economic relationships altogether. Equating them is usually rhetorical hyperbole and if taken seriously, leads to some very wrong conclusions.
- mattmaroon 19y ago
  >>You'd be astonished at how many who start out with the Ferrari wreck it in short order and how many who start out with bricks become very strong because of it.<< Outlying cases are irrelevant. Of course people overcome the odds in both directions. But given equal driving ability, the Ferrari will always win the race, take the prize money, and buy their children a Ferrari. >>People who start out with wealth seldom create wealth.<< What is the basis of that statement? Bill Gates was born to a very wealthy family. Warren Buffet was born to a stockbroker-turned-Congressman, so definitely at least upper middle class. Carlos Slim Helu has been quoted saying "I came from a wealthy family. I have always had money." Seems the top three wealth-generators in the world were born wealthy. They attended Harvard, Columbia, and the university consistently ranked the best in Latin America, respectively. The only thing I'm astonished at is that there are people who have so little understanding of how the world works that they think poverty and wealth are not both self-perpetuating.
  - asdflkj 19y ago
    Only the real world is not a race and there is no prize money. If you own a big factory, you get richer not because God gives you a prize for having a bigger factory than everyone else, but because your factory creates wealth, out of nothing. Wealth does tend to perpetuate itself, as in the above example, but this is hardly lamentable. And "poverty perpetuates itself" is basically a bombastic way of saying "lack of wealth doesn't, in and of itself, create more wealth", which is natural and could never be otherwise. Of course, that's if we ignore the psychological component of it. But what can you do about that? Go into people's homes and tell them to stop being such feckless idiots?
  - Hexstream 19y ago
    ">>People who start out with wealth seldom create wealth.<< What is the basis of that statement? Bill Gates was born to a very wealthy family." I'm pretty sure Bill Gates made more cash than he created wealth. Those are orthogonal concepts. It's possible to make cash without creating wealth or indeed, destroying it (ex: "successful" spammer that destroys the value of email). It's also possible to create lots of wealth without making money (the example is left as an exercise for the reader).
    - cstejerean 19y ago
      About the only way to make money without creating wealth is to steal it from somebody else. Typically when somebody pays you for something you did, it's because they'd rather have your service or product than the cash they paid for it. Typically this means you created something valuable (or that the dollar is depreciating so quickly everyone's eager to get rid of it, but more on this later). The spammer created value to the companies advertising and more importantly created a whole market for spam filtering solutions (the same way virus writers created a huge anti-virus market, to the extent that some wonder if a lot of viruses are not actually written the AV vendors themselves).
      - emmett 19y ago
        This is the broken window fallacy. Making a "market" in window repairs by smashing windows doesn't create wealth.
- walterk 19y ago
  >>You'd be astonished at how many who start out with the Ferrari wreck it in short order and how many who start out with bricks become very strong because of it. I had a general idea of how many belong to the former and latter categories, so I'm not astonished. The statistical data supports my point. http://www.economicmobility.org/ http://www.economicmobility.org/ >>People who start out with wealth seldom create wealth. In the best cases, they usually just administer it. Its the people who start out with the bricks that seem to end up creating the wealth. This isn't just about starting off with wealth. My Ferrari metaphor is more about having the repertoire of values and skills needed to become wealthy in a place like the U.S. rather than simply being endowed with money. You're vastly more likely to do well in life if you have parents who spend time with you teaching you to read, making sure you do your homework, provide emotional support, and instill values of hard work and success than you are if you have parents, a parent, or no parents who do none of those things. The late John Ogbu studied why the children of affluent African American parents who went to excellent schools were much more likely to underperform academically relative to their peers, and discovered that parental disengagement was a major factor. http://www.hepg.org/her/abstract/38 http://www.hepg.org/her/abstract/38 Sometimes people manage to acquire the necessary values and thus the skills necessary to do well, despite starting off in adverse conditions. But they're the exceptions, and were psychologically and sociologically positioned to be that way. So unfortunately they can't be used as examples demonstrating that "anybody" can overcome adversity. >>Slavery and poverty are different economic relationships altogether. Equating them is usually rhetorical hyperbole and if taken seriously, leads to some very wrong conclusions. It's not exactly a stretch to say that the enslaved have typically been poor on account of their being slaves, is it? And I never equated slavery and poverty[1]: I used slavery as an obvious example of how you can have the deck overwhelmingly stacked against you. 1. I'm resisting the urge to say, "Anyone who says or implies that I equated them is themselves engaging in rhetorical hyperbole." :)
  - noonespecial 19y ago
    Sorry, I guess I took the slavery example to mean that this was a means to have the deck stacked financially against you in the context of rich vs. poor. Yes, being born a slave has historically been an insurmountable barrier to wealth. It's not exactly a stretch to say that the enslaved have typically been poor on account of their being slaves, is it? What I really wanted to drive home is that slaves are neither poor nor rich. These concepts are based on the ownership of property. Slaves are property and are forbidden to own property. Within the framework of the law, it is possible to escape poverty, not so with slavery. When politicians say that the poor are "slaves" to the rich or that poverty is a new kind of slavery, its a clean miss and usually indicates a rather ugly agenda hiding beneath.

deleted 19y ago

[deleted]

mynameishere 19y ago

I know lots of people Just wondering--do you really know "lots of people" who are among the "working poor"? I come from Appalachia and have known--genuinely, no bullshit here--lots of "working poor" and can't honestly say that there was some systematic conspiracy to hold them down, rough them up, prevent them from rising, etc. Fact is: There are a lot of people living in the lap of luxury--luxury measured by creature comforts--who in any other age would be lucky, yes lucky, to spend 12 hours a day behind a horse's ass. The real reason for people staying in the lower ranks is exactly what we already know: They have some dysfunction. Perhaps a lack of intelligence, or an excess of impulse, or simply a chronic inability to show up to work on time. The latter might suprise you, as it hardly matters if programmers get up at 8 or 9 or 10, but in low-end jobs, one of the big problems among "trouble employees" is simply their unwillingness to follow a schedule. Who's to blame?

david927 19y ago
There are lots of examples of poor people who are hard working and still poor, and lots of examples of wealthy people who fell into it. There is no moral value to wealth and to say so not only insults our intelligence but attempts to justify terrible injustices.
- deleted 19y ago
  [deleted]
- Prrometheus 19y ago
  At the same time, many people (we'll call them "left-wing") claim that there is no agency behind wealth or poverty, and that therefore we should punish the "lucky" rich people to help the "unlucky" poor. This attitude is utterly simplistic and destructive in a society when taken to the extreme (the left-wing tends to be extreme).
  - aquateen 19y ago
    "punish the rich"... "the left-wing tends to be extreme"; this is just blatant partisanship. There is nothing to support, just opinion... what productive conversation could start this way? This is why politics here is dangerous.

pchristensen 19y ago

I'm surprised that in a group as logical as YCNews, no one called him on this. Just because doing nothing leads to poverty doesn't mean it's the only way to get to poverty, or that doing something will get you out of it. It's just one path that doesn't imply anything about the other paths. All the talk of bricks and Ferrari's are arguments about a point that wasn't made.

deleted 19y ago
[deleted]