7 ms·

You are making a leap from "illegal" to "toxic" or to "terrible," while those are not the same.

by mowenz 9y ago

pooper 9y ago
People often mistakes law and ethics. Although with Airbnb, I'm not sure if I would give them the benefit of the doubt. While I agree that not all things illegal is toxic or terrible, knowing what we know about "disruptive" companies and the persona behind them, I think it is a safe bet in this case.
- mowenz 9y ago
  >While I agree that not all things illegal is toxic or terrible, knowing what we know about "disruptive" companies and the persona behind them, I think it is a safe bet in this case Well whether or not it is a safe bet (and I dont necessarily disagree), what I didagree with is the illogical reasoning I mentioned above, and also that you are making the bet on the stereotype of a persona.
  - pooper 9y ago
    I'm trying to not say anything particularly bad about particular people but here it goes https://youtube.com/watch?v=Hxgkyezm-bU https://youtube.com/watch?v=Hxgkyezm-bU Tell me if you think that they believe in any of the lofty things they're talking about. No, they don't. The culture permeates top down. (Good thing I'm not a judge)
    - mowenz 9y ago
      I'm not disagreeing or even commenting on the conclusion... I'm cmmenting about the method.
- tomhoward 9y ago
  Although with Airbnb, I'm not sure if I would give them the benefit of the doubt. What makes you say that? What instances of conduct from Airbnb's founders or senior management can you cite that indicate a propensity for unethical or immoral behaviour? And perhaps more pertinently: given that the ubiquity of the internet made it inevitable that a major marketplace would emerge that made it easier for people to conduct short-term property rentals online, and that this would inevitably clash with pre-internet regulatory frameworks, can you describe how Airbnb should have conducted themselves more ethically? My perspective: through my involvement in YC, I know the Airbnb founders well enough to know what well-intentioned and good-natured (i.e., friendly, supportive and nice) people they are, whilst not being personally close enough to them to have any loyalties that would prevent me from being critical where it is warranted. From that point of view, I can say there have been instances where Airbnb have made missteps or taken things a step too far in their pursuit of growth and success, but there is no consistent pattern of pathological or deeply unethical behaviour. What do you have that would counter this?
  - frankdenbow 9y ago
    They are likely referring to this: http://www.businessinsider.com/airbnb-co-founders-freshman-roommate-says-hes-a-spammy-scumbag-2011-10 http://www.businessinsider.com/airbnb-co-founders-freshman-r... My take is that they've built something thats super valuable and useful to society, the fact that it pushes the boundaries of current legality does not automatically make the place toxic, it just pushes the world to be slightly different in the future which is a good thing.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - tomhoward 9y ago
      I've waited almost 24 hours to reply to this, to see if anyone else had other examples to cite. Looks like there's nothing other than the link you posted. To which I say, if the worst anyone has ever come up with is an uncorroborated allegation of morally/legally questionable business practices when one was an adolescent in need of extra funds to help get through college, then I think they're doing just fine.
      - pooper 9y ago
        Sure Tom. They're doing just fine.
        tomhoward 9y ago
        Well, on the basis of solid evidence provided in this subthread, it really does seem like they are. An actual case of illegal or immoral behaviour from any of the founders, from some time during the past 15 years and/or during their adulthood, with corroborated evidence, might be able to disprove this. But none has been forthcoming.
  - Apocryphon 9y ago
    AirBnB seems to have largely avoided high-profile examples of blatant abuse, like Uber's controversies. The only case of tech company dickery-for-the-sake-of-dickery (or maybe just social insensitivity) I can think of is the bizarre passive-aggressive ad campaign after S.F. passed the tax on them: https://techcrunch.com/2015/10/21/that-airbnb-ad/ https://techcrunch.com/2015/10/21/that-airbnb-ad/ https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/23/business/media/airbnb-ads-flop-in-san-francisco.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/23/business/media/airbnb-ads...

You are making a leap from "illegal" to "toxic" or to "terrible," while those are not the same.

by mowenz 9y ago

You are making a leap from "illegal" to "toxic" or to "terrible," while those are not the same.

People often mistakes law and ethics. Although with Airbnb, I'm not sure if I would give them the benefit of the doubt. While I agree that not all things illegal is toxic or terrible, knowing what we know about "disruptive" companies and the persona behind them, I think it is a safe bet in this case.

mowenz 9y ago
>While I agree that not all things illegal is toxic or terrible, knowing what we know about "disruptive" companies and the persona behind them, I think it is a safe bet in this case Well whether or not it is a safe bet (and I dont necessarily disagree), what I didagree with is the illogical reasoning I mentioned above, and also that you are making the bet on the stereotype of a persona.
- pooper 9y ago
  I'm trying to not say anything particularly bad about particular people but here it goes https://youtube.com/watch?v=Hxgkyezm-bU https://youtube.com/watch?v=Hxgkyezm-bU Tell me if you think that they believe in any of the lofty things they're talking about. No, they don't. The culture permeates top down. (Good thing I'm not a judge)
  - mowenz 9y ago
    I'm not disagreeing or even commenting on the conclusion... I'm cmmenting about the method.
tomhoward 9y ago
Although with Airbnb, I'm not sure if I would give them the benefit of the doubt. What makes you say that? What instances of conduct from Airbnb's founders or senior management can you cite that indicate a propensity for unethical or immoral behaviour? And perhaps more pertinently: given that the ubiquity of the internet made it inevitable that a major marketplace would emerge that made it easier for people to conduct short-term property rentals online, and that this would inevitably clash with pre-internet regulatory frameworks, can you describe how Airbnb should have conducted themselves more ethically? My perspective: through my involvement in YC, I know the Airbnb founders well enough to know what well-intentioned and good-natured (i.e., friendly, supportive and nice) people they are, whilst not being personally close enough to them to have any loyalties that would prevent me from being critical where it is warranted. From that point of view, I can say there have been instances where Airbnb have made missteps or taken things a step too far in their pursuit of growth and success, but there is no consistent pattern of pathological or deeply unethical behaviour. What do you have that would counter this?
- frankdenbow 9y ago
  They are likely referring to this: http://www.businessinsider.com/airbnb-co-founders-freshman-roommate-says-hes-a-spammy-scumbag-2011-10 http://www.businessinsider.com/airbnb-co-founders-freshman-r... My take is that they've built something thats super valuable and useful to society, the fact that it pushes the boundaries of current legality does not automatically make the place toxic, it just pushes the world to be slightly different in the future which is a good thing.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - tomhoward 9y ago
    I've waited almost 24 hours to reply to this, to see if anyone else had other examples to cite. Looks like there's nothing other than the link you posted. To which I say, if the worst anyone has ever come up with is an uncorroborated allegation of morally/legally questionable business practices when one was an adolescent in need of extra funds to help get through college, then I think they're doing just fine.
    - pooper 9y ago
      Sure Tom. They're doing just fine.
      - tomhoward 9y ago
        Well, on the basis of solid evidence provided in this subthread, it really does seem like they are. An actual case of illegal or immoral behaviour from any of the founders, from some time during the past 15 years and/or during their adulthood, with corroborated evidence, might be able to disprove this. But none has been forthcoming.
- Apocryphon 9y ago
  AirBnB seems to have largely avoided high-profile examples of blatant abuse, like Uber's controversies. The only case of tech company dickery-for-the-sake-of-dickery (or maybe just social insensitivity) I can think of is the bizarre passive-aggressive ad campaign after S.F. passed the tax on them: https://techcrunch.com/2015/10/21/that-airbnb-ad/ https://techcrunch.com/2015/10/21/that-airbnb-ad/ https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/23/business/media/airbnb-ads-flop-in-san-francisco.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/23/business/media/airbnb-ads...