5 ms·

Europe isn’t the new Silicon Valley. It’s better

17 points by imartin2k 9y ago

gamechangr 9y ago
"I think the first mistake that people make is looking at the European tech scene as one large, monolithic block. It isn’t. Rather, it’s a collection of regions and cities, each with their own strengths and weaknesses." That's exactly the problem. If it were one large block, like Silicon Valley for the USA - there would be a much more vibrant tech community.
- imartin2k 9y ago
  I guess what you are pointing out (it being a problem) is the conventional view, while the author tries to frame it as a strength. In the end, it can be both, depending on the situation. Maybe akin to the centralized vs decentralized structure of web services?
  - gamechangr 9y ago
    Interesting - What is the potential up side of smaller/separated markets?
good_vibes 9y ago
lol.
vgy7ujm 9y ago
Salary is way lower, tax way higher, more often focus on cost cutting than innovation, 90% of applicants can't pass a technical test so teams are always understaffed and overworked. If SV was in Europe that would be a dream scenario for Europeans. Many SW companies that makes it big in Europe try to relocate or branch out to SV asap.
- herbst 9y ago
  > Salary is way lower, tax way higher What about Switzerland or Liechtenstein?
- imartin2k 9y ago
  "Salary is way lower, tax way higher" You are of course fully aware that a lower salary is less of a problem if the living costs are way lower, which they are in most of Europe. Looking just at the income side doesn't really say a lot (except for international travel). Second, I keep hearing from people in the Bay Area who end up cashing out only 50 % of their salary due to taxes. I don't have any good first hand information on this, but how sure are you about this "tax way higher in Europe" claim?
  - vgy7ujm 9y ago
    Yes there are a lot of poor countries in Europe. If you look at countries where Europeans actually want to live (and where tech companies are) then the cost of living and taxes are high. Also progressive income tax is common in Europe so you have to collect a very high salary to be much better off than the general population. E.g. You pay 40% on the first 50K then 50% on the next 20K then 60% on the next 20K... etc. A bit simplified but you get the picture. Add to this that there often is a lot of "hidden" taxes in Europe. 25% sales tax on every dollar spent is not uncommon. Gasoline and alcohol (really anything considered luxury, polluting, dangerous etc) taxes are often very high in countries where tech companies are. And you first pay that tax and the sales tax are added so you pay tax on tax. When adding all this it's not uncommon to reach 90% real tax on a dollar earned and spent. There's and old saying that you can't get rich on a salary in Europe and I think it is at least 99% true. Some countries have an ok standard of living for the general population, but if you want more you will find that it is hard to achieve. Also companies are taxed harder which makes it difficult to start new businesses based on innovation etc. You see a lot of consulting startups since you can start to bill hours right away. But no real value is created there..
    - imartin2k 9y ago
      I somehow do not recognize the Europe that you describe here, and I live in Europe (from Berlin, now in Stockholm). Couple of question: Why do you call countries "poor" when the topic is about "lower costs of living?". This is not necessarily the same. "When adding all this it's not uncommon to reach 90% real tax on a dollar earned and spent." What's the source of this? I never have heard of this or experienced it. And by the way, alcohol in most places of Europe is way cheaper than in Bay Area (where I've spent 2 years). It even is cheaper in Sweden. At most regular restaurants or bars in Sweden, a 0.4 beer costs between 5.50 - 6.50 USD inlcuding tax (and there is no need to tip, or 10 % max - whereas in the Bay Area you need to add 20 % on basically everything except groceries just for the tips). "There's and old saying that you can't get rich on a salary in Europe and I think it is at least 99% true." Judging from the numerous blog posts and comments of Silicon Valley types wondering why their salary doesn't make them rich (possibly because they have to pay 5000 USD for rent), this seems to be a more global phenomenon. With few exceptions, people anywhere in the world don't get rich from salaries, but from investing money in smart ways. "Some countries have an ok standard of living for the general population, but if you want more you will find that it is hard to achieve." What would that "more" be? 3 Yachts, 5 houses around the world, 1 plane and 4 Ferrari? You might be right about this. But that kind of extreme wealth is not the motivator for most entrepreneurs. Also, there are countries such as Switzerland (which is Europe, too, and where Google has its biggest European site) where you can very well achieve that kind of wealth. Sorry for being a bit snarky, but your post really seems more like you are selling a skewed ideological view (which mostly seems to be "taxes are bad") rather than reality.
mpfundstein 9y ago
How big is Europe and how big is the valley? This is comparing apples to oranges...
kutkloon7 9y ago
Comparing a tiny region in California with a continent... Typically American.
- dang 9y ago
  > Typically American This sort of swipe never helps and national slurs are not allowed on HN, so please don't comment like this again.
  - kutkloon7 9y ago
    My comment may look kind of trollish, but I'm rather serious. The American media has a serious disinterest in news that is not American. On the hand, this is understandable, since the USA is so big. However, most Americans do not realize that their view of the world is incomplete. I do consider my post a valid contribution, and no more of a 'national slur' than posts complaining about Trumps administration.
    - dang 9y ago
      > However, most Americans Please just keep this sort of handwavy national generalization off HN altogether. It's unsubstantive and leads to flamewars. Since you've done this repeatedly, it's worth stressing the point.
      - kutkloon7 9y ago
        Ow, come on. I get the point, but it's well known that American education isn't doing too well on geography, and the media in the rest of the world is a lot more interested in the US than the other way around.
      - kutkloon7 9y ago
        Is it better substantiated if I post a source? http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-05-15/1746-american-adults-were-asked-point-out-north-korea-map-was-result http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-05-15/1746-american-adult...

17 points by imartin2k 9y ago

"I think the first mistake that people make is looking at the European tech scene as one large, monolithic block. It isn’t. Rather, it’s a collection of regions and cities, each with their own strengths and weaknesses." That's exactly the problem. If it were one large block, like Silicon Valley for the USA - there would be a much more vibrant tech community.

imartin2k 9y ago
I guess what you are pointing out (it being a problem) is the conventional view, while the author tries to frame it as a strength. In the end, it can be both, depending on the situation. Maybe akin to the centralized vs decentralized structure of web services?
- gamechangr 9y ago
  Interesting - What is the potential up side of smaller/separated markets?

good_vibes 9y ago

lol.

vgy7ujm 9y ago

Salary is way lower, tax way higher, more often focus on cost cutting than innovation, 90% of applicants can't pass a technical test so teams are always understaffed and overworked. If SV was in Europe that would be a dream scenario for Europeans. Many SW companies that makes it big in Europe try to relocate or branch out to SV asap.

herbst 9y ago
> Salary is way lower, tax way higher What about Switzerland or Liechtenstein?
imartin2k 9y ago
"Salary is way lower, tax way higher" You are of course fully aware that a lower salary is less of a problem if the living costs are way lower, which they are in most of Europe. Looking just at the income side doesn't really say a lot (except for international travel). Second, I keep hearing from people in the Bay Area who end up cashing out only 50 % of their salary due to taxes. I don't have any good first hand information on this, but how sure are you about this "tax way higher in Europe" claim?
- vgy7ujm 9y ago
  Yes there are a lot of poor countries in Europe. If you look at countries where Europeans actually want to live (and where tech companies are) then the cost of living and taxes are high. Also progressive income tax is common in Europe so you have to collect a very high salary to be much better off than the general population. E.g. You pay 40% on the first 50K then 50% on the next 20K then 60% on the next 20K... etc. A bit simplified but you get the picture. Add to this that there often is a lot of "hidden" taxes in Europe. 25% sales tax on every dollar spent is not uncommon. Gasoline and alcohol (really anything considered luxury, polluting, dangerous etc) taxes are often very high in countries where tech companies are. And you first pay that tax and the sales tax are added so you pay tax on tax. When adding all this it's not uncommon to reach 90% real tax on a dollar earned and spent. There's and old saying that you can't get rich on a salary in Europe and I think it is at least 99% true. Some countries have an ok standard of living for the general population, but if you want more you will find that it is hard to achieve. Also companies are taxed harder which makes it difficult to start new businesses based on innovation etc. You see a lot of consulting startups since you can start to bill hours right away. But no real value is created there..
  - imartin2k 9y ago
    I somehow do not recognize the Europe that you describe here, and I live in Europe (from Berlin, now in Stockholm). Couple of question: Why do you call countries "poor" when the topic is about "lower costs of living?". This is not necessarily the same. "When adding all this it's not uncommon to reach 90% real tax on a dollar earned and spent." What's the source of this? I never have heard of this or experienced it. And by the way, alcohol in most places of Europe is way cheaper than in Bay Area (where I've spent 2 years). It even is cheaper in Sweden. At most regular restaurants or bars in Sweden, a 0.4 beer costs between 5.50 - 6.50 USD inlcuding tax (and there is no need to tip, or 10 % max - whereas in the Bay Area you need to add 20 % on basically everything except groceries just for the tips). "There's and old saying that you can't get rich on a salary in Europe and I think it is at least 99% true." Judging from the numerous blog posts and comments of Silicon Valley types wondering why their salary doesn't make them rich (possibly because they have to pay 5000 USD for rent), this seems to be a more global phenomenon. With few exceptions, people anywhere in the world don't get rich from salaries, but from investing money in smart ways. "Some countries have an ok standard of living for the general population, but if you want more you will find that it is hard to achieve." What would that "more" be? 3 Yachts, 5 houses around the world, 1 plane and 4 Ferrari? You might be right about this. But that kind of extreme wealth is not the motivator for most entrepreneurs. Also, there are countries such as Switzerland (which is Europe, too, and where Google has its biggest European site) where you can very well achieve that kind of wealth. Sorry for being a bit snarky, but your post really seems more like you are selling a skewed ideological view (which mostly seems to be "taxes are bad") rather than reality.

mpfundstein 9y ago

How big is Europe and how big is the valley? This is comparing apples to oranges...

kutkloon7 9y ago

Comparing a tiny region in California with a continent... Typically American.

dang 9y ago
> Typically American This sort of swipe never helps and national slurs are not allowed on HN, so please don't comment like this again.
- kutkloon7 9y ago
  My comment may look kind of trollish, but I'm rather serious. The American media has a serious disinterest in news that is not American. On the hand, this is understandable, since the USA is so big. However, most Americans do not realize that their view of the world is incomplete. I do consider my post a valid contribution, and no more of a 'national slur' than posts complaining about Trumps administration.
  - dang 9y ago
    > However, most Americans Please just keep this sort of handwavy national generalization off HN altogether. It's unsubstantive and leads to flamewars. Since you've done this repeatedly, it's worth stressing the point.
    - kutkloon7 9y ago
      Ow, come on. I get the point, but it's well known that American education isn't doing too well on geography, and the media in the rest of the world is a lot more interested in the US than the other way around.
    - kutkloon7 9y ago
      Is it better substantiated if I post a source? http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-05-15/1746-american-adults-were-asked-point-out-north-korea-map-was-result http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-05-15/1746-american-adult...