5 ms·

Is the Indian government now also doing astroturfing? Does anyone know about any serious research or reporting on it? Chinese and Russian operations are well-kn

Is the Indian government now also doing astroturfing? Does anyone know about any serious research or reporting on it? Chinese and Russian operations are well-known and reported, but I haven't heard of Indian ones. Seeing the same, generally weak talking points, angrily defending the Indian government, advocating nationalistic points of view, and repeated over and over - it all reminds me of threads critical of China and Russia.

captn3m0 9y ago
BJP (the current ruling part) is known to have a social media trolling unit: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/27/india-bjp-party-ordering-online-abuse-opponents-actors-modi-claims-book https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/27/india-bjp-part....
- abhishivsaxena 9y ago
  Also payment startups are at the fore front of the Anti Aadhaar lobbying effort, since Aadhaar based payments + UPI essentially cut the middleman out - NO MDR anymore! And it makes sense. Would you want a private company like ApplePay/PayPal/AliPay control payments, and be able to block merchants at will like apple does, or a public agency you can drag to court.
prodmerc 9y ago
I'm not defending anything, it's just extremely hypocritical to accuse India's system of being dystopian while currently existing systems in "developed" nations are even worse.
- _nedR 9y ago
  America doesn't have this. EU doesn't have this. AFAIK only UAE has such a comprehensive system. What countries are you talking about that takes mandatory 10-finger + retina scans of its citizens and compiles it into a single database? India hasn't banned DDT which has been banned for decades in every other country. We have crippled infrastructure, severe poverty. Yet India has time and money to implement one of the most ambitious Universal ID systems in the world.
  - abhishivsaxena 9y ago
    DDT isn't banned in most countries. It's actually recommended by WHO for INDOOR use in Malria control because it's the only viable option. http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2006/pr50/en/ http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2006/pr50/en/ I was hoping to only hear Anti Aadhaar FUD in this thread. Had no idea you had your target set on DDT as well. As for comparision with USA/EU, India is a different country with different set of problem/challenges. Instead of Aping others we should apply our mind to the problem and come up with solution. Aadhaar is the best example of that.
    - _nedR 9y ago
      I was referring to agricultural use which is banned worldwide except India and North Korea. WHO recommends poor countries to use DDT for malaria probably because people there are dying anyway from malaria. Would rich countries use it? Do you use it in your home? Again why India uses it in Agriculture when other alternatives exist?
abhishivsaxena 9y ago
Aadhaar was supported by the previous government. This government continued it. Most of India is unwavered in their support, since they see the benefits of getting instant bank account or food subsidy. And not being forced to stand in a line for such simple stuff in 40C+ temperature and wasting your entire day. There are more anti-aadhaar green accounts in this thread than pro-aadhaar. If your only argument is to bring thowaway statements like Nationalism/Russia etc into it, then it just reflects poorly on you.
hackuser 9y ago
I'll add that in a few hours I got 6 (or maybe more) down-votes on otherwise uncontroversial comments that didn't agree with the seeming Indian nationalist party line - often the comments didn't directly disagree, they just didn't advocate or drink the Kool-Aid. Not a complaint, but it looks like the symptoms of what I asked about.
- abhishivsaxena 9y ago
  That could be more because your tone, making unsubstantiated claims etc. Instead if you want to blame some national party for it, it's you choice. FYI I don't have downvotes powers. Btw, I got donwvotes too. But I'm blaming anyone for it.
  - hackuser 9y ago
    I thought my tone was civil and matter-of-fact. Please let me know if it seemed otherwise. > unsubstantiated claims I substantiated my hypothesis and acknowledged its uncertainty. Of course there is no clear proof of astroturfing, unless it's very clumsily done. The whole point of it is to look like legitimate users.
    - dang 9y ago
      Would you please stop going on about this? You've done it a great deal and we've now explained to you that (unless you have actual evidence) it's off-topic. If you have concerns about abuse on HN you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com so we can look into it, but you're not welcome to dilute HN discussions with what amounts to nothing more than tedious fantasy.
dang 9y ago
> Is the Indian government now also doing astroturfing? You can't make insinuations of astroturfing or shillage on HN without evidence. Haven't we discussed this with you before? Please don't comment like this again.
- hackuser 9y ago
  dang: It's a bit shocking to read this, and it's disappointing too. I hadn't heard of this policy until now. I've seen very many comments make similar claims in many discussions and I didn't see this response. I just checked the Guidelines and it's not discussed there. Please consider how a user would learn about it - I'm pretty active and I haven't seen it. One possible source of miscommunication: Users probably see only a tiny fraction of what you do, and you could make this comment 100 times and maybe only a fraction of users would come across it at all. But it's especially disappointing to read the accusation, which has no basis as far as I know. I've always been respectful of the mods, other users, the forum, and its rules, even when I think they aren't great ideas (inevitably, nobody will agree with everything). If I had known about this policy, I would have respected it too. I don't know how I was cast into the role of an antagonist. Like anyone, I don't appreciate loose allegations about me. ... > You can't make insinuations of astroturfing or shillage on HN without evidence I don't quite understand the policy as stated. I understand not accusing individuals without evidence, but I certainly didn't do that even by implication. Half my comment was a question asking if there was evidence that it happens in other places, not HN. I also raised the possibility of it happening here, but clearly was unsure and 'insinuated' nothing; I meant simply what I said. If not even that is allowed ... But to be clear, my concerns don't mean I won't respect your forum's rules. (However, uncertainties will make it more likely that it will happen unintentionally) EDIT: Moved paragraph with questions of general interest to your post at the top of the discussion.
  - dang 9y ago
    If we haven't discussed this before, I must have confused you with someone else and apologize. I've posted about this countless times: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&prefix=true&page=0&dateRange=all&type=comment&query=by:dang%20astroturf https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&prefix=true&page=0&dateR.... There are several ways you might have actual evidence that someone was astroturfing, but they're rare, and overwhelmingly less likely than people just making such accusations up because another user's comment pisses them off. The "you must be a shill" trope is pretty much the most popular internet cheap shot out there, and based on everything we know, it's a far greater threat to this site because it's so common and degrades discussion so quickly. Indeed it's a bit like antivirus software in causing the very problem it claims to combat. So, unless you have more evidence than someone being wrong in your opinion on the internet, you bet it's inadmissible here.

captn3m0 9y ago

BJP (the current ruling part) is known to have a social media trolling unit: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/27/india-bjp-party-ordering-online-abuse-opponents-actors-modi-claims-book https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/27/india-bjp-part....

abhishivsaxena 9y ago
Also payment startups are at the fore front of the Anti Aadhaar lobbying effort, since Aadhaar based payments + UPI essentially cut the middleman out - NO MDR anymore! And it makes sense. Would you want a private company like ApplePay/PayPal/AliPay control payments, and be able to block merchants at will like apple does, or a public agency you can drag to court.

prodmerc 9y ago

I'm not defending anything, it's just extremely hypocritical to accuse India's system of being dystopian while currently existing systems in "developed" nations are even worse.

_nedR 9y ago
America doesn't have this. EU doesn't have this. AFAIK only UAE has such a comprehensive system. What countries are you talking about that takes mandatory 10-finger + retina scans of its citizens and compiles it into a single database? India hasn't banned DDT which has been banned for decades in every other country. We have crippled infrastructure, severe poverty. Yet India has time and money to implement one of the most ambitious Universal ID systems in the world.
- abhishivsaxena 9y ago
  DDT isn't banned in most countries. It's actually recommended by WHO for INDOOR use in Malria control because it's the only viable option. http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2006/pr50/en/ http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2006/pr50/en/ I was hoping to only hear Anti Aadhaar FUD in this thread. Had no idea you had your target set on DDT as well. As for comparision with USA/EU, India is a different country with different set of problem/challenges. Instead of Aping others we should apply our mind to the problem and come up with solution. Aadhaar is the best example of that.
  - _nedR 9y ago
    I was referring to agricultural use which is banned worldwide except India and North Korea. WHO recommends poor countries to use DDT for malaria probably because people there are dying anyway from malaria. Would rich countries use it? Do you use it in your home? Again why India uses it in Agriculture when other alternatives exist?

abhishivsaxena 9y ago

Aadhaar was supported by the previous government. This government continued it. Most of India is unwavered in their support, since they see the benefits of getting instant bank account or food subsidy. And not being forced to stand in a line for such simple stuff in 40C+ temperature and wasting your entire day. There are more anti-aadhaar green accounts in this thread than pro-aadhaar. If your only argument is to bring thowaway statements like Nationalism/Russia etc into it, then it just reflects poorly on you.

hackuser 9y ago

I'll add that in a few hours I got 6 (or maybe more) down-votes on otherwise uncontroversial comments that didn't agree with the seeming Indian nationalist party line - often the comments didn't directly disagree, they just didn't advocate or drink the Kool-Aid. Not a complaint, but it looks like the symptoms of what I asked about.

abhishivsaxena 9y ago
That could be more because your tone, making unsubstantiated claims etc. Instead if you want to blame some national party for it, it's you choice. FYI I don't have downvotes powers. Btw, I got donwvotes too. But I'm blaming anyone for it.
- hackuser 9y ago
  I thought my tone was civil and matter-of-fact. Please let me know if it seemed otherwise. > unsubstantiated claims I substantiated my hypothesis and acknowledged its uncertainty. Of course there is no clear proof of astroturfing, unless it's very clumsily done. The whole point of it is to look like legitimate users.
  - dang 9y ago
    Would you please stop going on about this? You've done it a great deal and we've now explained to you that (unless you have actual evidence) it's off-topic. If you have concerns about abuse on HN you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com so we can look into it, but you're not welcome to dilute HN discussions with what amounts to nothing more than tedious fantasy.

dang 9y ago

> Is the Indian government now also doing astroturfing? You can't make insinuations of astroturfing or shillage on HN without evidence. Haven't we discussed this with you before? Please don't comment like this again.

hackuser 9y ago
dang: It's a bit shocking to read this, and it's disappointing too. I hadn't heard of this policy until now. I've seen very many comments make similar claims in many discussions and I didn't see this response. I just checked the Guidelines and it's not discussed there. Please consider how a user would learn about it - I'm pretty active and I haven't seen it. One possible source of miscommunication: Users probably see only a tiny fraction of what you do, and you could make this comment 100 times and maybe only a fraction of users would come across it at all. But it's especially disappointing to read the accusation, which has no basis as far as I know. I've always been respectful of the mods, other users, the forum, and its rules, even when I think they aren't great ideas (inevitably, nobody will agree with everything). If I had known about this policy, I would have respected it too. I don't know how I was cast into the role of an antagonist. Like anyone, I don't appreciate loose allegations about me. ... > You can't make insinuations of astroturfing or shillage on HN without evidence I don't quite understand the policy as stated. I understand not accusing individuals without evidence, but I certainly didn't do that even by implication. Half my comment was a question asking if there was evidence that it happens in other places, not HN. I also raised the possibility of it happening here, but clearly was unsure and 'insinuated' nothing; I meant simply what I said. If not even that is allowed ... But to be clear, my concerns don't mean I won't respect your forum's rules. (However, uncertainties will make it more likely that it will happen unintentionally) EDIT: Moved paragraph with questions of general interest to your post at the top of the discussion.
- dang 9y ago
  If we haven't discussed this before, I must have confused you with someone else and apologize. I've posted about this countless times: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&prefix=true&page=0&dateRange=all&type=comment&query=by:dang%20astroturf https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&prefix=true&page=0&dateR.... There are several ways you might have actual evidence that someone was astroturfing, but they're rare, and overwhelmingly less likely than people just making such accusations up because another user's comment pisses them off. The "you must be a shill" trope is pretty much the most popular internet cheap shot out there, and based on everything we know, it's a far greater threat to this site because it's so common and degrades discussion so quickly. Indeed it's a bit like antivirus software in causing the very problem it claims to combat. So, unless you have more evidence than someone being wrong in your opinion on the internet, you bet it's inadmissible here.