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I belong to the third world of the third world. State called Uttar Pradesh. If you consider India as 3rd world, then UP is 3rd world of India. Here are the e

I belong to the third world of the third world. State called Uttar Pradesh. If you consider India as 3rd world, then UP is 3rd world of India. Here are the emotional benefits of Aadhar : My parents don't have to bribe the local gas connections distribution agents. Which means, No need to stay in long queue from 8 In the morning, not to get your cooking cylinder, but to pay the bribe. Since the government has advertised the Direct Benefit far too much,on TV, on radio, the middleman (distributer) can't cheat anymore. This government markets everything and hence the poor and underprivileged has started questioning those the officials who don't do their jobs or provide the things exactly as advertised. The middleman I am talking about are not government employees directly, but taking a distribution agency does involve bribe payment. Those middleman paid bribe before 2014 government to get the agency, hoping that they will get the roi(i is bribe) within a few years. 2014 government single handedly has destroyed the corrupt ( who paid bribe) middleman in gas distribution Most of the proganda against this government is supported people who felt entitled being part of a government job, (extra bribe ) because the Congress Government had created deep corruption webs for 60 years. Notice a fun fact, Aadhar was introduced before 2013, before the election of 2014. Not many these so called privacy and human rights activists stood up then. All propaganda against Aadhar has been intensified only after the Aadhar number started saving money and stared to directly benefit people. Coincidence? Also, when the government decided to link Aadhar to the income tax returns, again these privacy activists have become active ? Coincidence? Remember, the old lady in a village in in 3rd world does not know about privacy, she is happy because now her 15 son does not need to stand and bribe the gas distribution agency and can study for a day extra.

ganduG 9y ago
Yes, but the old lady in the village will have a problem with it when it is used to marginalize and discriminate against her. The riots in 1984 and in 2001 showed us how voter lists can, and will, be misused by people in power to their own benefit.
- aub3bhat 9y ago
  You mean the Cincinnati riots of 2001 I can clearly see why USA should not have voter lists /s The riots happened in 2002 and NOT 2001 (at least get the year right), and unless you are arguing abolishing voter lists, or have a specific argument that involves Aadhar. I don't see how this is in anyway relevant to this discussion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_riots_of_2001 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_riots_of_2001 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_riots
  - ganduG 9y ago
    Nice deflection! Are you disagreeing that voter lists were used in 2001 to discriminate against muslims? Do we have any laws preventing that from happening with aadhar data?
    - realonedev 9y ago
      Do you even understand how Aadhar works? You made a claim. Can you prove that using an Aadhar number one can get the religion of a person?
      - hackuser 9y ago
        If you can identify someone, it's easy to link it to data that identifies their religion.
        realonedev 9y ago
        You are wrong. Easy!= Exact. I asked a simple question, do you know how to identify a religion by Aadhar number?
        urbanj 9y ago
        He is right. Prove that it is impossible, please.
      - 9y ago
- realonedev 9y ago
  Disgusting comment. Please make sure you know what you are talking. Don't spread fake news like the Indian communists. Edit: If people want I compile produce point by point data to prove that Indian communists are masters at spreding fake news, for decades. I will even quote a website which is mostly anti current government (it spreads fake news most of the times) thewire.in/24713/aadhaar-identification-simplified-myths-busted/ ....The UIDAI has emphasised several times that information related to religion or caste is neither collected nor stored in the Aadhaar database. Applicants and holders are encouraged to look at their Aadhaar to confirm this.....
  - blindwatchmaker 9y ago
    > Don't spread fake news like the communists. > mostly anti current government (it spreads fake news most of the times) Do you consider views from sources that disagree with your own as 'fake news' ? A lot of what you've posted here sounds a lot like the hyper partisan BJP trolls that seem to pop up wherever there's any criticism of the Modi government. You should try to do better on HN, because I would prefer not to see that particular virulent strain of the internet in relatively sane places.
    - realonedev 9y ago
      Your assumptions mean nothing,unless you produce quantifiable data and verifiable data source to proof any of your claims. Your statement combining the words, hyper, troll, government, modi, sanity, are not backed up by any data nor they hold true for anyone else expect the ones having a biased brain such, as yours. I can prove point by point how communists spread fake news. Your assumptions about equating disagreeing with fake news with stamping as fake news, does not matter, it actually makes you a troll who just wants to spread the propaganda; that a person stating a media house as a fake news source necessarily disagrees with it, if he/she has an opinion at all about the fake news. How in earth did you just assume that fake news = disagreement by the person who finds out the fake factor in the news. A news is fake, means, it has not got verifiable data to back up it's headline or summary. Simple and plain. Why is it so hard for some people to understand? I would rather communicate with those who don't label people and jump to conclusions. Good day, and Remember, Fake News = No verifiable data source + no quantifiable data. Fake News Defender's arguments = oppose all those who find out the fake factor/fact check by abusing them and name calling them trolls "look he disagrees hence he calls it fake news".
petertodd 9y ago
Propaganda? Your 30 minute old account sounds like propaganda too. We all know we could reduce crime by putting cameras in people's homes. But we don't do that, because there are risks to those kinds of invasive measures. Aadhar is infrastructure that allows for centralized control of the population. Sometimes that control will be used for good things, like stamping out bribery. But that control can just as easily be used for evil too. And history has shown time and time again that's exactly what happens. I live in Canada, a country filled with refugees of authoritarian regimes. Among my friends I personally know lots of people who have fled those kinds of regimes; I know very few people who have fled countries because of bribery. The latter is annoying and unproductive, but the former is deadly. That's why you're seeing so much opposition to Aadhar: because it's incredibly dangerous. edit: better wording
- realonedev 9y ago
  Propaganda? Your 30 minute old account sounds Do you know the difference between a reader and writer ? Please Google the difference. Not every reader on hn for over 5 years needs to have an account. And, not every old account need not contribute anything useful to the discussion. Good Day.
  - it_learnses 9y ago
    you didn't address his main points though.
- splintercell 9y ago
  > We all know we could reduce crime by putting cameras in people's homes. But we don't do that, because there are risks to those kinds of invasive measures. Surprisingly, in India if people would be against such a measure then only because it would violate the modesty of women, and not because it invades the privacy.
  - realonedev 9y ago
    Refer, https://thewire.in/24713/aadhaar-identification-simplified-myths-busted/ https://thewire.in/24713/aadhaar-identification-simplified-m... The UIDAI has emphasised several times that information related to religion or caste is neither collected nor stored in the Aadhaar database. Applicants and holders are encouraged to look at their Aadhaar to confirm this
schoen 9y ago
> Notice a fun fact, Aadhar was introduced before 2013, before the election of 2014. Not many these so called privacy and human rights activists stood up then. I realize you're probably talking about people in India in this context, not people in the U.S., but I helped write part of this anti-Aadhar post back in 2012: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/09/indias-gargantuan-biometric-database-raises-big-questions https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/09/indias-gargantuan-biom... In support of your view that some critics have minimal knowledge of India, but also in opposition to your view that critics are motivated by considerations of Indian politics, I don't know which party was in power in India either before or after the 2014 election.
- realonedev 9y ago
  Aadhar started rolling out in 2011 itself, people started enrolling out then only and started getting Aadhar card by post. Some privacy activists did stood and enquired but did not get much support or voice. After 6 years who are the people who are creating noise and running from corner to corner ? Do these people actually care about privacy? Hard to think. Have these people lost money due to direct benefit scheme? Plausible. There is no reason to blatantly hate Aadhar unless - you are a corrupt government employee - you are a middleman contractor - you had invested in something and were hoping that the roI will come as a bribe from the common people - you fear more direct to benefit schemes in future because you have been accumulating wealth by being a middleman all through your life. -- you are a privacy freak typing on a device assembled in China.
  - urbanj 9y ago
    - you are suspicious that in country where corruption exists at the highest levels that access to this database will be given to many, many entities that should be have access t oit.
  - schoen 9y ago
    > you are a privacy freak typing on a device assembled in China. So I see a lot of tensions in this thread between views of privacy advocates in India opposing Aadhar (accused of having some other kind of agenda) and privacy advocates outside India opposing it (accused of not knowing much about India). Although this thread has included discussions about both Indian and non-Indian opposition, the privacy community outside India is quite relevant because the original article is a (U.S.-based) Mozilla post criticizing Aadhar. I'm a privacy advocate outside India accused of not knowing much about India, to which I can readily confess. I have unfortunately not yet had the opportunity to visit India. As I said, I don't know which party was in power when Aadhar was first developed, nor do I know which party is in power now, nor have I witnessed the situation of the rural communities often described as the biggest Aadhar beneficiaries. I do find it sad that the notion of hypocrisy or disproportionate concern has taken on such a high profile in this thread. Like you said, I am typing this on a device assembled in China. I've thought about the possibility that the Chinese state (in whose territory this device was shipped), the American state (through those territory this device was shipped and in whose territory its CPU was designed), or the Swedish, Dutch, German, Swiss, Italian, Portuguese, Brazilian, Singaporean, Taiwanese, British, or Chinese states, among others (through those territory I've carried this device), may have used their access to backdoor it somehow. I find these possibilities deeply tragic. I'm very grateful that so many people around the world are working to expose, detect, and fight back against the ways in which governments may tamper with our devices. People who do that are my heroes, and I hope their community will grow and grow. If a manufacturer can show how it's better-protected its users against supply chain attacks, I will be really excited to consider its products.
flak48 9y ago
>Not many these so called privacy and human rights activists stood up then. The current PM Modi himself criticized it then : https://twitter.com/narendramodi/status/453543852175925248?lang=en https://twitter.com/narendramodi/status/453543852175925248?l... Coincidence?
- realonedev 9y ago
  He asked questions about implementation.
  - devnonymous 9y ago
    ..and complained when he didn't receive any answers from the government in power and now that his Government is in power, not only is it also refusing to answer questions but is also targeting the people who ask similar questions.[1] [1] Google for CIS and Aadhaar leaks
JumpCrisscross 9y ago
The track record of power-centralising anti-corruption projects is poor. This is because corruption is a sign of weak or ineffective institutions. Institutions which can't stop bribery probably can't prevent the next guy from e.g. zeroing out the bank accounts of vulnerable populations who voted against him or are to the detriment of a crony.
- realonedev 9y ago
  We had Nehru Firoz Khan dynasty, their relatives, their friends, at premier positions of adminstration, politics, law enforcement for 60 years. They lacked the motive to actually establish strong and performance oriented institutions, hence corruption became a daily routine in India. Slowly, some(not all) things are progressing. Using Aadhar to directly transfer the money to exact recipient has rattled those who had enjoyed or felt entitled to waste the subsidiaries or sell the subsidiaries items in outer market + then ask the government for extra subsidiaries again and again and again.
flak48 9y ago
How exactly is a biometric ID going to prevent them demanding bribes?
_nedR 9y ago
My folks also loved aadhar because of the cheap gas. Not because of bribes ( i guess its not an issue in Kerala) but because the government would give subsidy to those who had aadhar cards. So people sold their privacy to the govt, in exchange for cheap gas.

ganduG 9y ago

Yes, but the old lady in the village will have a problem with it when it is used to marginalize and discriminate against her. The riots in 1984 and in 2001 showed us how voter lists can, and will, be misused by people in power to their own benefit.

aub3bhat 9y ago
You mean the Cincinnati riots of 2001 I can clearly see why USA should not have voter lists /s The riots happened in 2002 and NOT 2001 (at least get the year right), and unless you are arguing abolishing voter lists, or have a specific argument that involves Aadhar. I don't see how this is in anyway relevant to this discussion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_riots_of_2001 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_riots_of_2001 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_riots
- ganduG 9y ago
  Nice deflection! Are you disagreeing that voter lists were used in 2001 to discriminate against muslims? Do we have any laws preventing that from happening with aadhar data?
  - realonedev 9y ago
    Do you even understand how Aadhar works? You made a claim. Can you prove that using an Aadhar number one can get the religion of a person?
    - hackuser 9y ago
      If you can identify someone, it's easy to link it to data that identifies their religion.
      - realonedev 9y ago
        You are wrong. Easy!= Exact. I asked a simple question, do you know how to identify a religion by Aadhar number?
        urbanj 9y ago
        He is right. Prove that it is impossible, please.
    - 9y ago
realonedev 9y ago
Disgusting comment. Please make sure you know what you are talking. Don't spread fake news like the Indian communists. Edit: If people want I compile produce point by point data to prove that Indian communists are masters at spreding fake news, for decades. I will even quote a website which is mostly anti current government (it spreads fake news most of the times) thewire.in/24713/aadhaar-identification-simplified-myths-busted/ ....The UIDAI has emphasised several times that information related to religion or caste is neither collected nor stored in the Aadhaar database. Applicants and holders are encouraged to look at their Aadhaar to confirm this.....
- blindwatchmaker 9y ago
  > Don't spread fake news like the communists. > mostly anti current government (it spreads fake news most of the times) Do you consider views from sources that disagree with your own as 'fake news' ? A lot of what you've posted here sounds a lot like the hyper partisan BJP trolls that seem to pop up wherever there's any criticism of the Modi government. You should try to do better on HN, because I would prefer not to see that particular virulent strain of the internet in relatively sane places.
  - realonedev 9y ago
    Your assumptions mean nothing,unless you produce quantifiable data and verifiable data source to proof any of your claims. Your statement combining the words, hyper, troll, government, modi, sanity, are not backed up by any data nor they hold true for anyone else expect the ones having a biased brain such, as yours. I can prove point by point how communists spread fake news. Your assumptions about equating disagreeing with fake news with stamping as fake news, does not matter, it actually makes you a troll who just wants to spread the propaganda; that a person stating a media house as a fake news source necessarily disagrees with it, if he/she has an opinion at all about the fake news. How in earth did you just assume that fake news = disagreement by the person who finds out the fake factor in the news. A news is fake, means, it has not got verifiable data to back up it's headline or summary. Simple and plain. Why is it so hard for some people to understand? I would rather communicate with those who don't label people and jump to conclusions. Good day, and Remember, Fake News = No verifiable data source + no quantifiable data. Fake News Defender's arguments = oppose all those who find out the fake factor/fact check by abusing them and name calling them trolls "look he disagrees hence he calls it fake news".

petertodd 9y ago

Propaganda? Your 30 minute old account sounds like propaganda too. We all know we could reduce crime by putting cameras in people's homes. But we don't do that, because there are risks to those kinds of invasive measures. Aadhar is infrastructure that allows for centralized control of the population. Sometimes that control will be used for good things, like stamping out bribery. But that control can just as easily be used for evil too. And history has shown time and time again that's exactly what happens. I live in Canada, a country filled with refugees of authoritarian regimes. Among my friends I personally know lots of people who have fled those kinds of regimes; I know very few people who have fled countries because of bribery. The latter is annoying and unproductive, but the former is deadly. That's why you're seeing so much opposition to Aadhar: because it's incredibly dangerous. edit: better wording

realonedev 9y ago
Propaganda? Your 30 minute old account sounds Do you know the difference between a reader and writer ? Please Google the difference. Not every reader on hn for over 5 years needs to have an account. And, not every old account need not contribute anything useful to the discussion. Good Day.
- it_learnses 9y ago
  you didn't address his main points though.
splintercell 9y ago
> We all know we could reduce crime by putting cameras in people's homes. But we don't do that, because there are risks to those kinds of invasive measures. Surprisingly, in India if people would be against such a measure then only because it would violate the modesty of women, and not because it invades the privacy.
- realonedev 9y ago
  Refer, https://thewire.in/24713/aadhaar-identification-simplified-myths-busted/ https://thewire.in/24713/aadhaar-identification-simplified-m... The UIDAI has emphasised several times that information related to religion or caste is neither collected nor stored in the Aadhaar database. Applicants and holders are encouraged to look at their Aadhaar to confirm this

schoen 9y ago

> Notice a fun fact, Aadhar was introduced before 2013, before the election of 2014. Not many these so called privacy and human rights activists stood up then. I realize you're probably talking about people in India in this context, not people in the U.S., but I helped write part of this anti-Aadhar post back in 2012: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/09/indias-gargantuan-biometric-database-raises-big-questions https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/09/indias-gargantuan-biom... In support of your view that some critics have minimal knowledge of India, but also in opposition to your view that critics are motivated by considerations of Indian politics, I don't know which party was in power in India either before or after the 2014 election.

realonedev 9y ago
Aadhar started rolling out in 2011 itself, people started enrolling out then only and started getting Aadhar card by post. Some privacy activists did stood and enquired but did not get much support or voice. After 6 years who are the people who are creating noise and running from corner to corner ? Do these people actually care about privacy? Hard to think. Have these people lost money due to direct benefit scheme? Plausible. There is no reason to blatantly hate Aadhar unless - you are a corrupt government employee - you are a middleman contractor - you had invested in something and were hoping that the roI will come as a bribe from the common people - you fear more direct to benefit schemes in future because you have been accumulating wealth by being a middleman all through your life. -- you are a privacy freak typing on a device assembled in China.
- urbanj 9y ago
  - you are suspicious that in country where corruption exists at the highest levels that access to this database will be given to many, many entities that should be have access t oit.
- schoen 9y ago
  > you are a privacy freak typing on a device assembled in China. So I see a lot of tensions in this thread between views of privacy advocates in India opposing Aadhar (accused of having some other kind of agenda) and privacy advocates outside India opposing it (accused of not knowing much about India). Although this thread has included discussions about both Indian and non-Indian opposition, the privacy community outside India is quite relevant because the original article is a (U.S.-based) Mozilla post criticizing Aadhar. I'm a privacy advocate outside India accused of not knowing much about India, to which I can readily confess. I have unfortunately not yet had the opportunity to visit India. As I said, I don't know which party was in power when Aadhar was first developed, nor do I know which party is in power now, nor have I witnessed the situation of the rural communities often described as the biggest Aadhar beneficiaries. I do find it sad that the notion of hypocrisy or disproportionate concern has taken on such a high profile in this thread. Like you said, I am typing this on a device assembled in China. I've thought about the possibility that the Chinese state (in whose territory this device was shipped), the American state (through those territory this device was shipped and in whose territory its CPU was designed), or the Swedish, Dutch, German, Swiss, Italian, Portuguese, Brazilian, Singaporean, Taiwanese, British, or Chinese states, among others (through those territory I've carried this device), may have used their access to backdoor it somehow. I find these possibilities deeply tragic. I'm very grateful that so many people around the world are working to expose, detect, and fight back against the ways in which governments may tamper with our devices. People who do that are my heroes, and I hope their community will grow and grow. If a manufacturer can show how it's better-protected its users against supply chain attacks, I will be really excited to consider its products.

flak48 9y ago

>Not many these so called privacy and human rights activists stood up then. The current PM Modi himself criticized it then : https://twitter.com/narendramodi/status/453543852175925248?lang=en https://twitter.com/narendramodi/status/453543852175925248?l... Coincidence?

realonedev 9y ago
He asked questions about implementation.
- devnonymous 9y ago
  ..and complained when he didn't receive any answers from the government in power and now that his Government is in power, not only is it also refusing to answer questions but is also targeting the people who ask similar questions.[1] [1] Google for CIS and Aadhaar leaks

JumpCrisscross 9y ago

The track record of power-centralising anti-corruption projects is poor. This is because corruption is a sign of weak or ineffective institutions. Institutions which can't stop bribery probably can't prevent the next guy from e.g. zeroing out the bank accounts of vulnerable populations who voted against him or are to the detriment of a crony.

realonedev 9y ago
We had Nehru Firoz Khan dynasty, their relatives, their friends, at premier positions of adminstration, politics, law enforcement for 60 years. They lacked the motive to actually establish strong and performance oriented institutions, hence corruption became a daily routine in India. Slowly, some(not all) things are progressing. Using Aadhar to directly transfer the money to exact recipient has rattled those who had enjoyed or felt entitled to waste the subsidiaries or sell the subsidiaries items in outer market + then ask the government for extra subsidiaries again and again and again.

flak48 9y ago

How exactly is a biometric ID going to prevent them demanding bribes?

_nedR 9y ago

My folks also loved aadhar because of the cheap gas. Not because of bribes ( i guess its not an issue in Kerala) but because the government would give subsidy to those who had aadhar cards. So people sold their privacy to the govt, in exchange for cheap gas.