6 ms·

Just as a PSA, lead in any quantity is toxic and particularly so for children. Copper, silver, and gold are in the same family of elements (group 11) and lead i

Just as a PSA, lead in any quantity is toxic and particularly so for children. Copper, silver, and gold are in the same family of elements (group 11) and lead is in the carbon family. Very different characteristics. edit: I should also note (since bringing up families of elements) that - supporting your anecdote - silver has known and studied antimicrobial properties (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16766878 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16766878). Sadly it has been coopted by quacks, so there's also a lot of misinformation out there about it, too.

smcl 9y ago
No kidding about the silver being co-opted by quacks. If "colloidal silver" is taken in any decent quantities, it'll turn you a little blue. This is a libertarian guy who's attempted to run for a couple of different positions in the USA: http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38297000/jpg/_38297733_blue_300_ap.jpg http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38297000/jpg/_38297733_bl...
- fuzzfactor 9y ago
  I agree, quacks were already there and silver was just what some of them gravitated towards some of the time. Turns out that non-ionic silver at concentrations of 10 to 30 ppm by weight in otherwise pure water of neutral pH will kill germs quite remarkably. Without the risk of argyria to any degree upon consuming at least a pint a day with regular sun exposure in addition. As has been known for years, the depicted politician is suffering from consumption of an overdose of silver in general, likely orders of magnitude beyond the level needed for germkilling, and also likely to have been in ionic form. One big slug of poorly-crafted material created according to any number of questionable procedures could be enough to cause this type of permanent discoloration. Probably not the kind of thing to try at home. Although it is sometimes suspected that overdoses of ionic silver occurred often enough when cooking or serving acidic foods in sterling kitchenware over the centuries to royalty, that the term "bluebloods" was coined. Also, there is some possibility the blueness used to represent some dieties in India gives a good idea of what a prototype royal figure might have looked like if too much silver was consumed intentionally or not. OTOH, a true colloid crafted after decades of professional silver electrochemistry, of known concentration as measured by state-of-the-art laboratory techniques, can be considered almost like a completely different animal. If I ever meet anyone with the guts to take it to clinical trials, I'll gladly supply the material. All it takes is one physician single-handedly at the least, as long as nobody is in a hurry, it could be done in spare time like the process was invented, no deadlines. Simply the confidence to know you can accomplish what others do not dream of doing on their own.
vram22 9y ago
Thanks for the info. Yes, I've read about leaded petrol and its effects on the brain, more so in children. I even read somewhere a while ago (maybe on HN) that crime had come down somewhat over some decades (in the US?), which was partly attributed (in the article I read) to reduced use of leaded petrol (gasoline). Interesting about the silver study, and agree about quacks.
- deeth_starr 9y ago
  Worldwide probably... http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2015/01/yep-gasoline-lead-explains-crime-decline-canada-too http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2015/01/yep-gasoline-l...
- askvictor 9y ago
  Interestingly, the guy (Thomas Midgley) who thought to add lead to petrol is the same guy who thought of using CFCs for refrigerants.
  - DougN7 9y ago
    Wow, what a tragic guy: "J. R. McNeill, an environmental historian, opined that Midgley "had more impact on the atmosphere than any other single organism in Earth's history." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr.
vram22 9y ago
> Copper, silver, and gold are in the same family of elements (group 11) and lead is in the carbon family. By that, I'm guessing you mean in the periodic table. Been a while since I looked at that, should check it out again out of interest.
- throwaway5752 9y ago
  Yup, a lot of chemical properties are dictated by the number of outermost free ("valence") electrons, and atoms in columns in the periodic table all have the same number of valence electrons, hence similar chemical properties. The University of Nottingham's School of Chemistry has some great, brief videos on various elements if you're ever interested: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtESv1e7ntJaLJYKIO1FoYw https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtESv1e7ntJaLJYKIO1FoYw
  - vram22 9y ago
    Interesting, will check them, thanks.
colechristensen 9y ago
Copper, silver, and gold are also toxic in high doses but not in the same extreme way as lead, which should be kept as close to zero as possible.
- jacobush 9y ago
  Gold... toxic?
  - wnevets 9y ago
    there was even an episode of house where the cause was gold poisoning.
    - ars 9y ago
      I'm pretty sure it was silver, not gold. It gives a person a "gray/purple" skin color that makes them look dead. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyria
    - JLK_121416 9y ago
      That doesn't necessarily mean that the element is poisonous per se. Many good/healthy substances are poisonous at high levels,e.g.: Vitamin A poisoning [0] Water poisoning [1] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypervitaminosis_A https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypervitaminosis_A [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication
- vram22 9y ago
  Yes, empirically, I guess at least gold cannot be too or immediately toxic, since thin gold leaf is sometimes put on sweets as a decoration in India - usually on peda kind of sweets: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peda https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peda https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vark Silver too, according to the above page.
  - bykovich2 9y ago
seer 9y ago
Fun fact - tomatos were actually considered poisonous in parts of europe for a long time, since they have high acidity and leach toxins from lead plates http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/why-the-tomato-was-feared-in-europe-for-more-than-200-years-863735/ http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/why-the-tomato-wa...
- erroneousfunk 9y ago
  I find it hard to believe that the Europeans (Italians? English?) would have feared tomatoes because the acidity leached lead from pewter plates. Several reasons: 1. Tomatoes have a high acidity, but many other foods (I mean, wine, for crying out loud! From ubiquitous pewter glasses!) would have had a higher acidity. Vinegar was commonly used in a variety of dishes. 2. Lead poisoning is not usually a sudden event that causes you to say "My god! Must have been the tomatoes!" If there even was a connection, it would have taken a large scale analysis that would have more strongly identified that "people who eat off of pewter tend to get these symptoms." After all, it wasn't just the wealthy eating tomatoes. It just makes no sense that they could have linked the two, especially after all of the incredibly blatant health hazards that hadn't been linked together. 3. Tomatoes are clearly a member of the nightshade family, and this was known in the 1700's. Although lots of great things come from the family (chili peppers, tobacco!) they're often not things to mess with, and might kill you. Potatoes also had a similarly bad reputation because of this. An over-cautious biologist and a little misinformation (or perhaps an early variety of tomato with too much solanine or something nasty in its leaves) seems a lot more likely than "lead poisoning" 4. The source that was linked to for this "fact" is a book on growing Heirloom tomatoes that has nothing to back this up at all, and is far from a "scholarly resource" Seems like a lot of irresponsible reporting.
vmarquet 9y ago
Little known fact: lead might be one of the reasons of the decline of the Roman Empire, because they used it inside the pipes carrying water. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning#History
- tossaway1 9y ago
  I would have thought that was a well known fact. It's brought up virtually every time lead toxicity comes up...

smcl 9y ago

No kidding about the silver being co-opted by quacks. If "colloidal silver" is taken in any decent quantities, it'll turn you a little blue. This is a libertarian guy who's attempted to run for a couple of different positions in the USA: http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38297000/jpg/_38297733_blue_300_ap.jpg http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38297000/jpg/_38297733_bl...

fuzzfactor 9y ago
I agree, quacks were already there and silver was just what some of them gravitated towards some of the time. Turns out that non-ionic silver at concentrations of 10 to 30 ppm by weight in otherwise pure water of neutral pH will kill germs quite remarkably. Without the risk of argyria to any degree upon consuming at least a pint a day with regular sun exposure in addition. As has been known for years, the depicted politician is suffering from consumption of an overdose of silver in general, likely orders of magnitude beyond the level needed for germkilling, and also likely to have been in ionic form. One big slug of poorly-crafted material created according to any number of questionable procedures could be enough to cause this type of permanent discoloration. Probably not the kind of thing to try at home. Although it is sometimes suspected that overdoses of ionic silver occurred often enough when cooking or serving acidic foods in sterling kitchenware over the centuries to royalty, that the term "bluebloods" was coined. Also, there is some possibility the blueness used to represent some dieties in India gives a good idea of what a prototype royal figure might have looked like if too much silver was consumed intentionally or not. OTOH, a true colloid crafted after decades of professional silver electrochemistry, of known concentration as measured by state-of-the-art laboratory techniques, can be considered almost like a completely different animal. If I ever meet anyone with the guts to take it to clinical trials, I'll gladly supply the material. All it takes is one physician single-handedly at the least, as long as nobody is in a hurry, it could be done in spare time like the process was invented, no deadlines. Simply the confidence to know you can accomplish what others do not dream of doing on their own.

vram22 9y ago

Thanks for the info. Yes, I've read about leaded petrol and its effects on the brain, more so in children. I even read somewhere a while ago (maybe on HN) that crime had come down somewhat over some decades (in the US?), which was partly attributed (in the article I read) to reduced use of leaded petrol (gasoline). Interesting about the silver study, and agree about quacks.

deeth_starr 9y ago
Worldwide probably... http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2015/01/yep-gasoline-lead-explains-crime-decline-canada-too http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2015/01/yep-gasoline-l...
askvictor 9y ago
Interestingly, the guy (Thomas Midgley) who thought to add lead to petrol is the same guy who thought of using CFCs for refrigerants.
- DougN7 9y ago
  Wow, what a tragic guy: "J. R. McNeill, an environmental historian, opined that Midgley "had more impact on the atmosphere than any other single organism in Earth's history." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr.

vram22 9y ago

> Copper, silver, and gold are in the same family of elements (group 11) and lead is in the carbon family. By that, I'm guessing you mean in the periodic table. Been a while since I looked at that, should check it out again out of interest.

throwaway5752 9y ago
Yup, a lot of chemical properties are dictated by the number of outermost free ("valence") electrons, and atoms in columns in the periodic table all have the same number of valence electrons, hence similar chemical properties. The University of Nottingham's School of Chemistry has some great, brief videos on various elements if you're ever interested: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtESv1e7ntJaLJYKIO1FoYw https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtESv1e7ntJaLJYKIO1FoYw
- vram22 9y ago
  Interesting, will check them, thanks.

colechristensen 9y ago

Copper, silver, and gold are also toxic in high doses but not in the same extreme way as lead, which should be kept as close to zero as possible.

jacobush 9y ago
Gold... toxic?
- wnevets 9y ago
  there was even an episode of house where the cause was gold poisoning.
  - ars 9y ago
    I'm pretty sure it was silver, not gold. It gives a person a "gray/purple" skin color that makes them look dead. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyria
  - JLK_121416 9y ago
    That doesn't necessarily mean that the element is poisonous per se. Many good/healthy substances are poisonous at high levels,e.g.: Vitamin A poisoning [0] Water poisoning [1] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypervitaminosis_A https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypervitaminosis_A [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication
vram22 9y ago
Yes, empirically, I guess at least gold cannot be too or immediately toxic, since thin gold leaf is sometimes put on sweets as a decoration in India - usually on peda kind of sweets: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peda https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peda https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vark Silver too, according to the above page.
- bykovich2 9y ago

seer 9y ago

Fun fact - tomatos were actually considered poisonous in parts of europe for a long time, since they have high acidity and leach toxins from lead plates http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/why-the-tomato-was-feared-in-europe-for-more-than-200-years-863735/ http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/why-the-tomato-wa...

erroneousfunk 9y ago
I find it hard to believe that the Europeans (Italians? English?) would have feared tomatoes because the acidity leached lead from pewter plates. Several reasons: 1. Tomatoes have a high acidity, but many other foods (I mean, wine, for crying out loud! From ubiquitous pewter glasses!) would have had a higher acidity. Vinegar was commonly used in a variety of dishes. 2. Lead poisoning is not usually a sudden event that causes you to say "My god! Must have been the tomatoes!" If there even was a connection, it would have taken a large scale analysis that would have more strongly identified that "people who eat off of pewter tend to get these symptoms." After all, it wasn't just the wealthy eating tomatoes. It just makes no sense that they could have linked the two, especially after all of the incredibly blatant health hazards that hadn't been linked together. 3. Tomatoes are clearly a member of the nightshade family, and this was known in the 1700's. Although lots of great things come from the family (chili peppers, tobacco!) they're often not things to mess with, and might kill you. Potatoes also had a similarly bad reputation because of this. An over-cautious biologist and a little misinformation (or perhaps an early variety of tomato with too much solanine or something nasty in its leaves) seems a lot more likely than "lead poisoning" 4. The source that was linked to for this "fact" is a book on growing Heirloom tomatoes that has nothing to back this up at all, and is far from a "scholarly resource" Seems like a lot of irresponsible reporting.

vmarquet 9y ago

Little known fact: lead might be one of the reasons of the decline of the Roman Empire, because they used it inside the pipes carrying water. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning#History

tossaway1 9y ago
I would have thought that was a well known fact. It's brought up virtually every time lead toxicity comes up...