4 ms·

Agreed much of our drug policy and criminal system systematically keeps down black people. Not sure that one comment skipping a discussion of race implies all o

Agreed much of our drug policy and criminal system systematically keeps down black people. Not sure that one comment skipping a discussion of race implies all of HN is biased, though

arionhardison 9y ago
I disagree; and your watered down comment is an example of what I was talking about. It does not just "systematically" keep people down. That is just your elitist way of saying "meh, the system is not optimized for your success but get over it". In reality; the system was actually designed to incarcerate a certain group of people, not because of American's "Puritan” roots but because America is racist as hell and always has been but it does not benefit the HN crowd (mainly White/Asian/Indian etc…) to admit or examine this issue since it does not reinforce the image of how they want to see themselves. That is how an entire discussion on this issue can take place without even a mention of the driving force behind America’s incarceration strategy.
- ygaf 9y ago
  People aren't talking about race because the article is mainly about life inside prison, not how easily or for how long you end up in there.
- mhluongo 9y ago
  No, my "systematically" meant "by design, throughout the system". Also, I definitely didn't say "meh", act particularly elitist, say anything about the system vs "your success", or try to make excuses for America based on "Puritan roots". I think the system is racist as hell. I'd love to have a real discussion about this, but you're putting words in my mouth, versus responding to my actual comment and trying to have a conversation
- EGreg 9y ago
  You simply assert that America set out to incarcerate Blacks because it is sore about giving them freedom? Perhaps it's a bit more complex than that. Growing up African American (or for that matter Native American) you are far more likely to be in a single parent household, therefore poorer. Your schools are often worse as a result. Girls mature a couple years faster. All this leads to a vicious cycle of younger pregnancies, often out of wedlock. Add to this that anyone growing up in a tough neighborhood needs to "toughen up". And you have a lot of vicious cycles perpetuating this kind of life. It is not race-related. Nigerians for example who immigrated in the 20th century have culture that differs in many respects. The average Nigerian American family income is higher than many other ethnicities including Dutch and French Americans. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the... There has got to be a way to help communities combat destructive cultural elements without getting all bent out of shape about racism. I feel there is a very vocal industry out there that wants everyone to say Blacks are victims, and shouts down any hint that they have the power to choose what they do in their own family and neighborhood just like everybody else.
  - rectang 9y ago
    > It is not race-related. I'd tell you to read "Invisible Man" by Ralph Ellison, but I think you would only see blank pages.
    - EGreg 9y ago
      Why are responses like these such cryptic hit-and-run allusions to lack of knowledge and assertions of bias? Why not directly engage with facts, statistics, right here instead of saying one should read an entire book, while offering nothing to directly address the substance of what we discussed? Look, there are members of the "Black race" who have a different culture and make more money and themselves look down upon "ghetto culture". Here are some elements of the culture: swearing frequently, guffawing loudly in public places, escalating arguments to violence over trivial things, filming themselves on youtube abusing defenseless people, etc. etc. Look, I come from Russia. I can readily admit - and so can many Russians - that certain sectors of Russian society have similar tendencies to drink and violent escalations etc. These are just facts and they are not race related, they are culture related. I am a man. I realize men are disproportionstely profiled by police vs women for violent crimes and are incarcerated far, far more often than women. Yet I am willing to deal with facts about men's behavior vs women's behavior on the average without yelling systemic sexism and that men are victims. We have to be able to deal with facts as adults and men, just like women, have the power over their behavior and probability of going to jail. When it comes to men vs women you presumably agree w me, but somehow you seem to suggest that speaking in non racial terms is racist. Why, because you think African Americans are incapable of making choices that other ethnicities (Han Chinese, Jews) can make when it comes to eg raising a family?
  - arionhardison 9y ago
    I am black, I don't need you to explain what "growing up black" is like. Your entire argument is that of a naive outsider that does not understand the parallels between race and culture.

Agreed much of our drug policy and criminal system systematically keeps down black people. Not sure that one comment skipping a discussion of race implies all of HN is biased, though

arionhardison 9y ago

I disagree; and your watered down comment is an example of what I was talking about. It does not just "systematically" keep people down. That is just your elitist way of saying "meh, the system is not optimized for your success but get over it". In reality; the system was actually designed to incarcerate a certain group of people, not because of American's "Puritan” roots but because America is racist as hell and always has been but it does not benefit the HN crowd (mainly White/Asian/Indian etc…) to admit or examine this issue since it does not reinforce the image of how they want to see themselves. That is how an entire discussion on this issue can take place without even a mention of the driving force behind America’s incarceration strategy.

ygaf 9y ago
People aren't talking about race because the article is mainly about life inside prison, not how easily or for how long you end up in there.
mhluongo 9y ago
No, my "systematically" meant "by design, throughout the system". Also, I definitely didn't say "meh", act particularly elitist, say anything about the system vs "your success", or try to make excuses for America based on "Puritan roots". I think the system is racist as hell. I'd love to have a real discussion about this, but you're putting words in my mouth, versus responding to my actual comment and trying to have a conversation
EGreg 9y ago
You simply assert that America set out to incarcerate Blacks because it is sore about giving them freedom? Perhaps it's a bit more complex than that. Growing up African American (or for that matter Native American) you are far more likely to be in a single parent household, therefore poorer. Your schools are often worse as a result. Girls mature a couple years faster. All this leads to a vicious cycle of younger pregnancies, often out of wedlock. Add to this that anyone growing up in a tough neighborhood needs to "toughen up". And you have a lot of vicious cycles perpetuating this kind of life. It is not race-related. Nigerians for example who immigrated in the 20th century have culture that differs in many respects. The average Nigerian American family income is higher than many other ethnicities including Dutch and French Americans. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the... There has got to be a way to help communities combat destructive cultural elements without getting all bent out of shape about racism. I feel there is a very vocal industry out there that wants everyone to say Blacks are victims, and shouts down any hint that they have the power to choose what they do in their own family and neighborhood just like everybody else.
- rectang 9y ago
  > It is not race-related. I'd tell you to read "Invisible Man" by Ralph Ellison, but I think you would only see blank pages.
  - EGreg 9y ago
    Why are responses like these such cryptic hit-and-run allusions to lack of knowledge and assertions of bias? Why not directly engage with facts, statistics, right here instead of saying one should read an entire book, while offering nothing to directly address the substance of what we discussed? Look, there are members of the "Black race" who have a different culture and make more money and themselves look down upon "ghetto culture". Here are some elements of the culture: swearing frequently, guffawing loudly in public places, escalating arguments to violence over trivial things, filming themselves on youtube abusing defenseless people, etc. etc. Look, I come from Russia. I can readily admit - and so can many Russians - that certain sectors of Russian society have similar tendencies to drink and violent escalations etc. These are just facts and they are not race related, they are culture related. I am a man. I realize men are disproportionstely profiled by police vs women for violent crimes and are incarcerated far, far more often than women. Yet I am willing to deal with facts about men's behavior vs women's behavior on the average without yelling systemic sexism and that men are victims. We have to be able to deal with facts as adults and men, just like women, have the power over their behavior and probability of going to jail. When it comes to men vs women you presumably agree w me, but somehow you seem to suggest that speaking in non racial terms is racist. Why, because you think African Americans are incapable of making choices that other ethnicities (Han Chinese, Jews) can make when it comes to eg raising a family?
- arionhardison 9y ago
  I am black, I don't need you to explain what "growing up black" is like. Your entire argument is that of a naive outsider that does not understand the parallels between race and culture.