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This related and enormously powerful and touching article advises new doctors on how to break the news of a child's death to their parents. Unfathomable respons

by rrggrr 9y ago

This related and enormously powerful and touching article advises new doctors on how to break the news of a child's death to their parents. Unfathomable responsibility for those distant from performing it: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/04/opinion/sunday/how-to-tell-a-mother-her-child-is-dead.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/04/opinion/sunday/how-to-tel...

Mathnerd314 9y ago
> unfathomable (Adjective). impossible to measure or understand because of being very mysterious or complicated. It doesn't seem unfathomable at all; that NYT article is a relatively simple checklist. There are only really 8 or 9 steps, the rest is background. 1. put on coat 2. ensure coat is clean 3. practice in front of mirror 4. find mother 5. tell mother 6. wait/meditate 7. answer questions 8. give contact info 9. leave http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BeingGodIsHard http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BeingGodIsHard
- ouid 9y ago
  And yet, doctors still find it very difficult. Unfathomable...
  - Mathnerd314 9y ago
    Again, not unfathomable, they're probably just too dumb to follow a 9-step checklist...
    - DanBC 9y ago
      I ask this because I sometimes struggle with over-literal interpretation of someone's words. Do you honestly think that telling someone their child has died is easy? Is that an opinion you sincerely, honestly, hold?
      - Mathnerd314 9y ago
        Well, my judgement for "easy" is how hard it is to find video of it. From a quick google, telling someone your father is dead is pretty easy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-y2uX2QI6k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-y2uX2QI6k The problem there is doing it sincerely, which seems a little harder, but still within reach. Again, though, this is just the article's prescription: write the script, follow the script. R.e. your second question, the answer there is no. Generally I don't hold opinions, I hold perspective, generally the perspective of whatever I just read. Trying to hold an opinion is the second-easiest way to be wrong. http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html
        aptwebapps 9y ago
        Practically speaking, how do you separate perspectives from opinions?
        Mathnerd314 9y ago
        Well, a perspective contains a position (i.e. an opinion), but it also has sensory information; a perspective sees something, hears something, feels something, etc. Whereas an opinion on its own doesn't have an experience associated with it; it's just a data point. To extend the analogy, a perspective connects the points and makes some sort of smooth line; a perspective has derivatives/directions, and the possibility of movement, whereas opinions don't. Practically, the difference between perspectives and opinions is itself a matter of perspective. E.g., take the sentence "You make my stomach churn". In a figurative sense, it's an opinion on a person and not really generalizable beyond the speaker. But if we take it literally, we can go down from the brain and into the body of the speaker, looking at some medical pages like https://health.clevelandclinic.org/2016/05/stomach-churning-may-gut-stress/ https://health.clevelandclinic.org/2016/05/stomach-churning-..., and get the perspective: adrenaline rush, sore stomach, anxious mind, etc. Particularly with text, you can consider it in two ways: as a performative utterance, the act of a human writing/speaking said text, or as a declarative bit of data, some sequence of bytes generated by a hidden process.
    - ClassyJacket 9y ago
      I'm sorry, I don't mean to throw this word around carelessly as a generic insult... but genuinely, do you have an Autism Spectrum disorder? Simplifying something as emotionally extreme as telling a parent their child has died requires an extreme level of disconnection from the emotional reality of being human. I say this as someone with various psychological conditions myself so please don't take offence, but maybe it would be helpful to recognise how differently you perceive something like that to the average person?
      - Mathnerd314 9y ago
        Well, my general impression is that the average person lives their life in a mental fog, with vague notions of right and wrong and a heavy dose of "that's too complicated to understand". It probably does take a special brand of crazy to get past that web of lies and conditioned responses to something meaningful. But I like to think everyone has that capability, e.g. the ability to read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror_management_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror_management_theory and apply it to this thread. And you don't need to be autistic to get extreme levels of disconnection from reality, just do some Zen... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_in_Buddhism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_in_Buddhism
        chrisbennet 9y ago
        I'm not hearing a no...
        Mathnerd314 9y ago
        Don't know, don't care. Labelling people is just a way of distancing yourself from them, ending critical/rational discussion. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/alternative-truths/201005/why-its-dangerous-label-people https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/alternative-truths/2010... I would suggest some rules, e.g. http://critical-thinkers.com/2011/03/critical-thinking-the-rational-discussion-flowchart/ http://critical-thinkers.com/2011/03/critical-thinking-the-r..., except I don't follow those myself. Discussion is just a tool for idea generation (brainstorming), having a position at all is the fallacy. At best, you have a mixture of labels, e.g. 40% black / 60% white, based on random sampling of opinions.
- shade23 9y ago
  You mistake an overview to be the necessary steps. This is a complicated process which has several unknowns that can factor in unknowingly. There is a procedure involved and also guidelines, but the human factor can tend to throw both of these things out of the window. It is unfathomable because unless you undergo the process (of informing a parent of their child's death), you can only sympathize. And I think pretty much any process can be broken down as a well defined flow chart. But as long as you are dealing with emotions and humans, no flowchart is foolproof
  - pdxandi 9y ago
    Well said. My wife is a pediatrician and she has echoed as much to me many times. She often holds it together just long enough to give the news and comfort the family, then finds an empty room to grieve in her own way. She has said that it never gets easier.

by rrggrr 9y ago

Mathnerd314 9y ago

> unfathomable (Adjective). impossible to measure or understand because of being very mysterious or complicated. It doesn't seem unfathomable at all; that NYT article is a relatively simple checklist. There are only really 8 or 9 steps, the rest is background. 1. put on coat 2. ensure coat is clean 3. practice in front of mirror 4. find mother 5. tell mother 6. wait/meditate 7. answer questions 8. give contact info 9. leave http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BeingGodIsHard http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BeingGodIsHard

ouid 9y ago
And yet, doctors still find it very difficult. Unfathomable...
- Mathnerd314 9y ago
  Again, not unfathomable, they're probably just too dumb to follow a 9-step checklist...
  - DanBC 9y ago
    I ask this because I sometimes struggle with over-literal interpretation of someone's words. Do you honestly think that telling someone their child has died is easy? Is that an opinion you sincerely, honestly, hold?
    - Mathnerd314 9y ago
      Well, my judgement for "easy" is how hard it is to find video of it. From a quick google, telling someone your father is dead is pretty easy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-y2uX2QI6k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-y2uX2QI6k The problem there is doing it sincerely, which seems a little harder, but still within reach. Again, though, this is just the article's prescription: write the script, follow the script. R.e. your second question, the answer there is no. Generally I don't hold opinions, I hold perspective, generally the perspective of whatever I just read. Trying to hold an opinion is the second-easiest way to be wrong. http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html
      - aptwebapps 9y ago
        Practically speaking, how do you separate perspectives from opinions?
        Mathnerd314 9y ago
        Well, a perspective contains a position (i.e. an opinion), but it also has sensory information; a perspective sees something, hears something, feels something, etc. Whereas an opinion on its own doesn't have an experience associated with it; it's just a data point. To extend the analogy, a perspective connects the points and makes some sort of smooth line; a perspective has derivatives/directions, and the possibility of movement, whereas opinions don't. Practically, the difference between perspectives and opinions is itself a matter of perspective. E.g., take the sentence "You make my stomach churn". In a figurative sense, it's an opinion on a person and not really generalizable beyond the speaker. But if we take it literally, we can go down from the brain and into the body of the speaker, looking at some medical pages like https://health.clevelandclinic.org/2016/05/stomach-churning-may-gut-stress/ https://health.clevelandclinic.org/2016/05/stomach-churning-..., and get the perspective: adrenaline rush, sore stomach, anxious mind, etc. Particularly with text, you can consider it in two ways: as a performative utterance, the act of a human writing/speaking said text, or as a declarative bit of data, some sequence of bytes generated by a hidden process.
  - ClassyJacket 9y ago
    I'm sorry, I don't mean to throw this word around carelessly as a generic insult... but genuinely, do you have an Autism Spectrum disorder? Simplifying something as emotionally extreme as telling a parent their child has died requires an extreme level of disconnection from the emotional reality of being human. I say this as someone with various psychological conditions myself so please don't take offence, but maybe it would be helpful to recognise how differently you perceive something like that to the average person?
    - Mathnerd314 9y ago
      Well, my general impression is that the average person lives their life in a mental fog, with vague notions of right and wrong and a heavy dose of "that's too complicated to understand". It probably does take a special brand of crazy to get past that web of lies and conditioned responses to something meaningful. But I like to think everyone has that capability, e.g. the ability to read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror_management_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror_management_theory and apply it to this thread. And you don't need to be autistic to get extreme levels of disconnection from reality, just do some Zen... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_in_Buddhism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_in_Buddhism
      - chrisbennet 9y ago
        I'm not hearing a no...
        Mathnerd314 9y ago
        Don't know, don't care. Labelling people is just a way of distancing yourself from them, ending critical/rational discussion. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/alternative-truths/201005/why-its-dangerous-label-people https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/alternative-truths/2010... I would suggest some rules, e.g. http://critical-thinkers.com/2011/03/critical-thinking-the-rational-discussion-flowchart/ http://critical-thinkers.com/2011/03/critical-thinking-the-r..., except I don't follow those myself. Discussion is just a tool for idea generation (brainstorming), having a position at all is the fallacy. At best, you have a mixture of labels, e.g. 40% black / 60% white, based on random sampling of opinions.
shade23 9y ago
You mistake an overview to be the necessary steps. This is a complicated process which has several unknowns that can factor in unknowingly. There is a procedure involved and also guidelines, but the human factor can tend to throw both of these things out of the window. It is unfathomable because unless you undergo the process (of informing a parent of their child's death), you can only sympathize. And I think pretty much any process can be broken down as a well defined flow chart. But as long as you are dealing with emotions and humans, no flowchart is foolproof
- pdxandi 9y ago
  Well said. My wife is a pediatrician and she has echoed as much to me many times. She often holds it together just long enough to give the news and comfort the family, then finds an empty room to grieve in her own way. She has said that it never gets easier.