3 ms·

Is this sarcasm, or a joke? It's not very funny, and your comments come across as misogynistic and particularly rude. You complain that "CS departments are maki

by ue_ 9y ago

Is this sarcasm, or a joke? It's not very funny, and your comments come across as misogynistic and particularly rude. You complain that "CS departments are making it easy for women and ridiculing them" and then go on to say that women should "man the fuck up?". Edit: it would be nice if people could explain why they are downvoting me. What was off with my comment? I cannot improve my comments unless you leave a comment yourselves on how I can do that. I found the comment (now flagged) to be particularly abrasive. I go into detail with the arguments in a grandchild comment to this post.

omginternets 9y ago
If we ignore the form, I think the substance of his argument has some merit. I would appreciate it if you would comment on that, instead. Indeed, if women were systematically underpaid despite equivalent performance, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't be hired by the boatload. This might be explained by (1) a lack of women relative to men in the developer workforce and (2) a systematic bias in competence. It's not prima facie absurd to think that affirmative action efforts have perverse effects, namely that they push the actual selection based on competence to a later stage of the employment pipeline. I understand this isn't a conclusive argument, but it does have some merit, and I'm worried by the fact that just bringing it up has one labeled a misogynist. That's not the way forward.
- kwhitefoot 9y ago
  You mean like this bit: > Truth is you can't find a good woman programmer It's manifestly untrue. Perhaps you could tease out the parts that have some merit and paraphrase them without the gratuitous swearing so that the rest of us can see it.
- robin_reala 9y ago
  When someone finishes their argument with “Truth is you can't find a good woman programmer” it deserves flagging, not a retort.
  - omginternets 9y ago
    Again, the form is a bit prickly, but I think I've done a good job of spelling out what "you can't find a good woman programmer" likely means. Yes, the OP is irate, and no he should not have let that irritation show through, but I insist that the substance of his arguments are not without merit. > it deserves flagging, not a retort Censoring opinions you don't like is not the way forward. There's a reason these discussions are so polarized, and your attitude is largely responsible for it. I implore you to stop.
    - robin_reala 9y ago
      Opinions that actively hurt people and damage the reputation of our industry when published, as well as being demonstrably false should be censored in a private forum, yes. HN needs to actively avoid being a toxic shithole, so I’ll flag this sort of thing until I’m told by the mods to stop.
    - YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
      >> There's a reason these discussions are so polarized, and your attitude is largely responsible for it. That's like witnessing an arson and calling out the person who called the firemen as responsible for shit being on fire.
    - jt2190 9y ago
      Did the OP ask you to do this filtering for him? If not, let the man own his own words and thoughts. You're free to start a new top-level comment free of the vitriol.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
- soneca 9y ago
  Ignoring the form is ignoring part of the message the person wants to pass. And I see no relevant or mininally intelligent substance in the argument. "Woman are cherished"?? In his anedocte might be, my personal perception is completely opposite. Woman are mistreated and have a harder life than man since young age. So, if he is not referring any serious base for this claim, I believe he is just mysoginist. "Woman are not good programmers"?? Another fantasy in his mind that create a good story for his mind. I would appreciate if you try to comment whatever you found of merit in the substance of his comment
- ue_ 9y ago
  What in particular do you think has merit, here? Perhaps I'm missing something (it happens, of course) but I can't really see their point. I'll go through each point of GP's post and see what merit I can find therein. >It should absolutely be solved, somehow, but it's not by harassing a company that hires women for what they're worth. This is starting out at the point that the difference in wages arises out of how much the person is "worth", which may be true but I can't see any evidence for it, nor how you could accurately judge this. >My personal theory is that women are so cherished - they aren't held to the same standards in education. We try to pull them into the CS department by making it easy for them. That should stop. It's ridiculing women, and making them into inferior workers. This "personal theory" sounds like rubbish. Is there anything to support it, even anecdotal evidence? I find it hard to believe that CS courses are made easier for the purpose of bringing more women into them, and by their logic, it would also mean that the men who come out of CS degrees are also "inferior workers", so his previous argument collapses on itself. What's the merit in that? >At the same time women need to proactively become 'beta' and study exact sciences. Put in their fair share of the effort. Why exactly? Why can't women (and anyone) study what motivates them? And I think the conception that "soft sciences" (inexact?) are easy is quite demeaning to those who study it, and somewhat humorously the commenter is making this point having just earlier complained that CS being made easy is itself demeaning to women. What about this part of the comment? >Fucking social sciences are "fun and easy" - and women outnumber men there. So what if women outnumber men? So what if men outnumber women? Is the commenter saying that women choose social sciences because they're "fun and easy"? I'm sure some people find CS "fun and easy", too. Or some don't find it fun and easy. My friend is doing Sociology and he doesn't find it easy. >I think women should man the fuck up already. Don't get fair salary? Go away. That's what men do. Ignoring the fact that "man the fuck up" betrays and indeed perpetuates this commenter's perception that manliness equates to moral character and strength (itself a patriarchal conception), it does a disservice to our society to say that people should just leave rather than bargain for equitable treatment. Would the commenter say the same about unions for example? After all, union workers should just "man the fuck up already or go away if they don't get a fair salary"? It's an affront to worker rights. >It sounds weird, but think of it this way: If women came at a discount, why would you ever hire men? At least some companies should realize this. Because to my knowledge most countries have laws against companies which hire or fire only based on gender/sex. I don't know if the gender pay gap is "real" (I haven't done enough searching on this myself), and if it exists I do not know to what extent it exists (I know that there are various inaccurate or false figures floating around the Internet). >Truth is you can't find a good woman programmer. This is ridiculous and ignores the fact that there are plenty of female programmers. Out of interest, where do you find merit in these arguments? Edit: Why is this comment being downvoted? I have tried to make a calm and cogent response to the GP comment. Would the downvoters care to explain, please?
- YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
  >> Indeed, if women were systematically underpaid despite equivalent performance, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't be hired by the boatload. This might be explained by (1) a lack of women relative to men in the developer workforce and (2) a systematic bias in competence. But not, say, (3) a systematic bias in hiring practices. Heaven forbid!
- mannykannot 9y ago
  Someonewhocare3s is not being called a misogynist because of the points you make here, he is being so called because he deliberately presented himself as such in other aspects of his post. You seem to be saying that he should not be lambasted because underneath everything else he wrote, there may be a proposition that is at least debatable. This ignores the fact that he deliberately presented himself in that manner, and deserves to be judged on that, not on how you might present it. Freedom of speech does not protect you from being misunderstood; much less does it protect you from being clearly understood.
- mining 9y ago
  > Indeed, if women were systematically underpaid despite equivalent performance, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't be hired by the boatload. This might be explained by (1) a lack of women relative to men in the developer workforce and (2) a systematic bias in competence. Or (3) because a huge proportion of perceived performance is subjective. I can't find a study right now, but e.g. http://fortune.com/2014/08/26/performance-review-gender-bias/ http://fortune.com/2014/08/26/performance-review-gender-bias... make a decent argument towards women receiving qualitatively different performance feedback to men.
Asooka 9y ago
I don't know how his university is, but our has a quota of how many men and women get admitted each year. There is an exam you sit on (it's all pure math problems for the CS course) and the top X women and Y men enter. The exam is the same for both genders. The average score of the women who get admitted is consistently slightly lower than that of the men. That said, the difference isn't really big and I don't think the women have it any easier, if we accept that their innate ability is lower than the men's. It's computers, not rocket science, it's not that hard after all.
- YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
  Sorry, which university is that?

by ue_ 9y ago

omginternets 9y ago

If we ignore the form, I think the substance of his argument has some merit. I would appreciate it if you would comment on that, instead. Indeed, if women were systematically underpaid despite equivalent performance, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't be hired by the boatload. This might be explained by (1) a lack of women relative to men in the developer workforce and (2) a systematic bias in competence. It's not prima facie absurd to think that affirmative action efforts have perverse effects, namely that they push the actual selection based on competence to a later stage of the employment pipeline. I understand this isn't a conclusive argument, but it does have some merit, and I'm worried by the fact that just bringing it up has one labeled a misogynist. That's not the way forward.

kwhitefoot 9y ago
You mean like this bit: > Truth is you can't find a good woman programmer It's manifestly untrue. Perhaps you could tease out the parts that have some merit and paraphrase them without the gratuitous swearing so that the rest of us can see it.
robin_reala 9y ago
When someone finishes their argument with “Truth is you can't find a good woman programmer” it deserves flagging, not a retort.
- omginternets 9y ago
  Again, the form is a bit prickly, but I think I've done a good job of spelling out what "you can't find a good woman programmer" likely means. Yes, the OP is irate, and no he should not have let that irritation show through, but I insist that the substance of his arguments are not without merit. > it deserves flagging, not a retort Censoring opinions you don't like is not the way forward. There's a reason these discussions are so polarized, and your attitude is largely responsible for it. I implore you to stop.
  - robin_reala 9y ago
    Opinions that actively hurt people and damage the reputation of our industry when published, as well as being demonstrably false should be censored in a private forum, yes. HN needs to actively avoid being a toxic shithole, so I’ll flag this sort of thing until I’m told by the mods to stop.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
    >> There's a reason these discussions are so polarized, and your attitude is largely responsible for it. That's like witnessing an arson and calling out the person who called the firemen as responsible for shit being on fire.
  - jt2190 9y ago
    Did the OP ask you to do this filtering for him? If not, let the man own his own words and thoughts. You're free to start a new top-level comment free of the vitriol.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
soneca 9y ago
Ignoring the form is ignoring part of the message the person wants to pass. And I see no relevant or mininally intelligent substance in the argument. "Woman are cherished"?? In his anedocte might be, my personal perception is completely opposite. Woman are mistreated and have a harder life than man since young age. So, if he is not referring any serious base for this claim, I believe he is just mysoginist. "Woman are not good programmers"?? Another fantasy in his mind that create a good story for his mind. I would appreciate if you try to comment whatever you found of merit in the substance of his comment
ue_ 9y ago
What in particular do you think has merit, here? Perhaps I'm missing something (it happens, of course) but I can't really see their point. I'll go through each point of GP's post and see what merit I can find therein. >It should absolutely be solved, somehow, but it's not by harassing a company that hires women for what they're worth. This is starting out at the point that the difference in wages arises out of how much the person is "worth", which may be true but I can't see any evidence for it, nor how you could accurately judge this. >My personal theory is that women are so cherished - they aren't held to the same standards in education. We try to pull them into the CS department by making it easy for them. That should stop. It's ridiculing women, and making them into inferior workers. This "personal theory" sounds like rubbish. Is there anything to support it, even anecdotal evidence? I find it hard to believe that CS courses are made easier for the purpose of bringing more women into them, and by their logic, it would also mean that the men who come out of CS degrees are also "inferior workers", so his previous argument collapses on itself. What's the merit in that? >At the same time women need to proactively become 'beta' and study exact sciences. Put in their fair share of the effort. Why exactly? Why can't women (and anyone) study what motivates them? And I think the conception that "soft sciences" (inexact?) are easy is quite demeaning to those who study it, and somewhat humorously the commenter is making this point having just earlier complained that CS being made easy is itself demeaning to women. What about this part of the comment? >Fucking social sciences are "fun and easy" - and women outnumber men there. So what if women outnumber men? So what if men outnumber women? Is the commenter saying that women choose social sciences because they're "fun and easy"? I'm sure some people find CS "fun and easy", too. Or some don't find it fun and easy. My friend is doing Sociology and he doesn't find it easy. >I think women should man the fuck up already. Don't get fair salary? Go away. That's what men do. Ignoring the fact that "man the fuck up" betrays and indeed perpetuates this commenter's perception that manliness equates to moral character and strength (itself a patriarchal conception), it does a disservice to our society to say that people should just leave rather than bargain for equitable treatment. Would the commenter say the same about unions for example? After all, union workers should just "man the fuck up already or go away if they don't get a fair salary"? It's an affront to worker rights. >It sounds weird, but think of it this way: If women came at a discount, why would you ever hire men? At least some companies should realize this. Because to my knowledge most countries have laws against companies which hire or fire only based on gender/sex. I don't know if the gender pay gap is "real" (I haven't done enough searching on this myself), and if it exists I do not know to what extent it exists (I know that there are various inaccurate or false figures floating around the Internet). >Truth is you can't find a good woman programmer. This is ridiculous and ignores the fact that there are plenty of female programmers. Out of interest, where do you find merit in these arguments? Edit: Why is this comment being downvoted? I have tried to make a calm and cogent response to the GP comment. Would the downvoters care to explain, please?
YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
>> Indeed, if women were systematically underpaid despite equivalent performance, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't be hired by the boatload. This might be explained by (1) a lack of women relative to men in the developer workforce and (2) a systematic bias in competence. But not, say, (3) a systematic bias in hiring practices. Heaven forbid!
mannykannot 9y ago
Someonewhocare3s is not being called a misogynist because of the points you make here, he is being so called because he deliberately presented himself as such in other aspects of his post. You seem to be saying that he should not be lambasted because underneath everything else he wrote, there may be a proposition that is at least debatable. This ignores the fact that he deliberately presented himself in that manner, and deserves to be judged on that, not on how you might present it. Freedom of speech does not protect you from being misunderstood; much less does it protect you from being clearly understood.
mining 9y ago
> Indeed, if women were systematically underpaid despite equivalent performance, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't be hired by the boatload. This might be explained by (1) a lack of women relative to men in the developer workforce and (2) a systematic bias in competence. Or (3) because a huge proportion of perceived performance is subjective. I can't find a study right now, but e.g. http://fortune.com/2014/08/26/performance-review-gender-bias/ http://fortune.com/2014/08/26/performance-review-gender-bias... make a decent argument towards women receiving qualitatively different performance feedback to men.

Asooka 9y ago

I don't know how his university is, but our has a quota of how many men and women get admitted each year. There is an exam you sit on (it's all pure math problems for the CS course) and the top X women and Y men enter. The exam is the same for both genders. The average score of the women who get admitted is consistently slightly lower than that of the men. That said, the difference isn't really big and I don't think the women have it any easier, if we accept that their innate ability is lower than the men's. It's computers, not rocket science, it's not that hard after all.

YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
Sorry, which university is that?