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Storing Drinking-Water in Copper Pots Kills Contaminating Bacteria (2012)
- batter 9y agoI will just leave it here in case someone will want to employ copper pots: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10383875 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10383875
- allannienhuis 9y agoInteresting. Two studies with pretty much conflicting conclusions about safety of copper for potable water. I imagine that there is a level (range) of exposure that is in the sweet spot between 'kills harmful microbes' and 'kills/harms humans who drink the water'.
- maxxxxx 9y agoOne study is abut storing water in copper pots and the other is about copper in drinking water. Does storing water in pots automatically mean that the copper goes into the water and if yes, how high is the concentration?
- cmrx64 9y agoTFA looked at the copper concentration in the water after storage and it was below WHO guidelines for safe copper levels. Whether the WHO guidelines are sufficient or not is another question.
- kleiba 9y agoThe WHO guideline for copper is 2mg/l which is the same as in the German guidelines "Trinkwasserverordnung". The article linked by batter says right in the abstract: We found that the disease can even be caused by copper concentrations below the allowed concentration given by the German Guidelines for Drinking Water (Trinkwasserverordnung).
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- thatcat 9y ago>Does storing water in pots mean that Cu goes into water It's not automatic, but depends on pH. Acidic conditions will be favorable to metals leaching into water. The paper cites an initial pH of 7.84, and final pH of 7.94 - so the pH increased slightly as a result of the copper entering the solution. This pH change correlated with 177 ppb Cu concentration in these pots after 16 hours. If initial pH was lower this concentration would see a logarithmic increase in relation the lower initial pH over the same time interval. "Since distilled water is slightly acidic (pH 6.7±0.05) which might enhance copper leaching, we have demonstrated the effect of copper pot in regular drinking-water"
- std_throwaway 9y agoA quick google says: Drinking water in the US of A must have at least a pH of 6.5. They should have tested with that. I assume, the copper concentration would increase over 10-fold in that case versus the tested case.
- LgWoodenBadger 9y agoHow is storing it in copper pots significantly different than "storing" it in the copper pipes prevalent in a majority of houses in the USA?
- jessaustin 9y agoThat's true for houses of a particular age and value. New stuff is all PEX, and has been for some time. Old enough houses would have been cast iron. Cheaper houses (mobile homes, for example) were all PVC for a long time. I had to dig up and repair a sewer pipe yesterday, and was somewhat surprised to find that it was made of clay tile.
- icantdrive55 9y agoPEX is relatively new. There's still a lot of plumbers/HVAC guys who exclusively work with cooper, unless the owner wants PEX. How do I know? Contractor, and I have two rolls of Upunor on my garage, and still thinking (three years thinking) about doing my re-pipe in copper. Actually I have enough sticks of copper to do the job. Now--I just need the energy,mand motivation. Maybe today? (To anyone doing their own plumbing repairs. Do a bit at a time. Never just rip it all out.)
- HillaryBriss 9y agoin Los Angeles county (and, I believe, LA City), clay pipe is still an approved material for sewer pipe laterals http://dpw.lacounty.gov/general/faq/index.cfm?Action=getAnswers&FaqID=IyNNMzMK http://dpw.lacounty.gov/general/faq/index.cfm?Action=getAnsw... http://library.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/California/lamc/municipalcode/chaptervipublicworksandproperty?f=templates$fn=default.htm$3.0$vid=amlegal:losangeles_ca_mc$anc=JD_64.17 http://library.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/California/lamc/m....
- jessaustin 9y ago'icantdrive55 the thread is about water supply lines, not boilers or HVAC evaporator coils. I've dealt with a number of plumbers over the last several years, and not one wanted to use anything but PEX for supply lines. Actually a different preference would be a strike against any plumber I'd consider hiring for new work. Also you appear to be hellbanned.
- ghvknvgvh 9y agoNote that the authors of the paper being discussed are Indian. Literally any way of having potable water is better than what they do now.
- mirimir 9y agoI suspect that outcome depends on water pH and temperature. One doesn't use copper pots for cooking acidic tomato sauce, for example. Acidic well water corrodes copper plumbing.
- userbinator 9y agoNot surprising, there is no contradiction. Copper is toxic to many forms of life.
- Filligree 9y agoI somehow got copper in my fish tank... Don't.
- nxc18 9y agoLots of fish medication is copper based due to antibacterial/anti-parasitic action. Real bad for invertebrates though.
- Filligree 9y agoIn retrospect, the dead snails should have been a sign. I got a lot more copper in the water than fish could survive. Fortunately there were no fish in it yet.
- whatupmiked 9y ago"Copper content (177±16 ppb) in water stored in copper pots was well within the permissible limits of the World Health Organization. Copper holds promise as a point-of-use solution for microbial purification of drinking-water, especially in developing countries."
- Houshalter 9y agoYeah but they didn't test waters of different ph levels. I'm not sure if that would be an issue though.
- std_throwaway 9y agoIt could be an exponential curve and also be influenced by other ions in the water.
- std_throwaway 9y agoSafety standards aren't as black-and-white as the law. Some people will suffer way earlier than other people. Some people can tolerate some substances in way higher concentrations than the average person.
- m45t3r 9y agoJust remember the authors are suggesting copper pots for water storage in developing countries, where people have more chance of dying from diarrhea than from prolonged exposure to copper.
- kpil 9y agoMy water is delivered in copper tubes... It can't be that bad, can it?
- other_herbert 9y agoIt probably spends most of it's time in cast iron though and only the last hundred or so feet in copper... I'm in the same boat though
- reality_czech 9y agoThere is more information here: http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/eh/water/factsheet/com/copper.html http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/eh/water/factsheet/com/co... If you have old copper pipes you're probably fine. An oxide coating builds up on the pipes over time that prevents the release of copper. If you have a water filter you're probably fine (although check the particular filter to see what it removes.) You should have a water filter anyway if you live in any area that used to have industrial sites.
- manmal 9y agoCopper intake needs to be balanced out by zinc intake since they are antagonists regarding resorption in the intestines (This article says 1 copper to 15 zinc: http://www.livestrong.com/article/336425-side-effects-of-trace-mineral-supplements/ http://www.livestrong.com/article/336425-side-effects-of-tra...), so if you supplement a lot of zinc you might be fine using such a pot.
- pmoriarty 9y agoI store filtered drinking water in various plastic containers (often used juice bottles or the bottles that I boght store-bought water in). I wonder how health effects from the chemicals leeching in to my water from these plastic containers compare with the health effects from using copper containers, or perhaps ceramic/porcelain containers as those are supposed to be non-reactive.
- vram22 9y agoI do that too, sometimes, particularly when on trips in rural / forest areas / resorts (refill the plastic bottle at the camp place or resort's restaurant with filtered water from a water purifier) but as a heuristic, to mitigate any possible effects of the plastic chemicals, I throw away the bottle after a week or two.
- semi-extrinsic 9y agoDoesn't that do the opposite of what you intend? I imagine plastic stuff obviously leaching at a decaying rate.
- vram22 9y agoInteresting point, hadn't thought of it in that way. My "logic" was (though not thought through rigorously) something like this, maybe: the plastic may decay more with time and with handling and exposure to sunlight, hence throw the bottle after a week.
- anigbrowl 9y agodrop me a line at gmail, if you have the time.
- ska 9y agoCopper pots are used for cooking because of the superior heat transfer, but you are not cooking with copper directly. They are "tinned", and this coating needs upkeep. You can't really cook with it directly because it's too reactive with acidic foods.
- justincormack 9y agoModern ones are coated with stainless steel which needs no maintenance
- ska 9y agotrue, modern ones are electroplated - can still be called tinning in practice although that's inaccurate. It doesn't need anything like the same maintenace as old style. The point was more that nobody really cooks directly with copper, and did not historically.
- Overtonwindow 9y agoThe antibacterial properties of copper are well known, and were proven long ago. I think this is just someone looking for something to research and write a paper on.
- ashwinpp 9y ago> and were proven long ago. Can you back up your claim?
- cyphar 9y agoFirst discovered in 1893. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligodynamic_effect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligodynamic_effect There are a whole class of heavy metals that act as germicides.
- ams6110 9y agoSilver is used (in a cream) to prevent infection in wounds, particularly burns.
- eth0up 9y agoI've been making a deodorant created from connecting a few 9v batteries to two copper electrodes in distilled water, followed by the same with two silver electrodes, then blending the results with a bit of alcohol and essential oils. I put it in a spray-bottle and hit the pits with it. Seems significantly more effective than the essential oils alone or conventional products.
- cat199 9y agoFor discovery.. (though not 'scientific').. Try 1500-2000 BC https://www.copper.org/publications/newsletters/innovations/2000/06/medicine-chest.html https://www.copper.org/publications/newsletters/innovations/...
- sndean 9y agoNot sure about copper pots specifically, but Wikipedia has a reference suggesting 1893 [0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_properties_of_copper#Mechanisms_of_antibacterial_action_of_copper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_properties_of_co...
- emptybits 9y ago"We had also reported the benefit of using a copper-based device, contrived by us, which was as effective as the pot but at a fraction of the cost." [12] [12] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19230946/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19230946/ (Device spoiler: Water in glass bottles with copper coils.)
- newyankee 9y agoMany families in rural India use copper pots for this reason
- ComputerGuru 9y agoSilver is also known to have antibacterial/antimicrobial properties and is used both as a coating on handles, surfaces to prevent bacterial buildup and also in typical creams as an antibacterial option (however, I do believe a recent study showed it to be no better than a control when applied topically to burns, which is/was one of its primary uses). Both copper and silver oxidize unpleasantly very quickly, though.
- DanBC 9y agoThese clinicians do a nice summary of what they think the evidence is: http://www.woundsinternational.com/media/issues/567/files/content_10381.pdf http://www.woundsinternational.com/media/issues/567/files/co... That's an old document, and I'd be interested if there's anything newer.
- zxv 9y agoSilver sulfadiazine 1% cream is a highly effective antibiotic for preventing infections in deep burns. In my experience, while while the wound is open, this was the only cream that had no skin reactions, and that made it far easier keep it on 24/7. The cream kept air out, greatly reduced pain. Eliminating infection allowed more rapid healing. I don't know whether it's prescribed today, but it was the only cream that was effective at both reducing pain, and speeding healing.
- Moto7451 9y agoYup, it is still prescribed. They gave it to me after I had surgery on ingrown toenails on both sides of both big toes [1]. My Podiatrist used acid to burn away part of the nail matrix to prevent the outer quarter of each toenail from growing, reducing my toenail to half width. That prevented the problem from happening again [2]. Silvadine kept my toes from getting infected further and they healed rather painlessly. All in all good medicine. [1] Genetics and apparently bad grooming habits for the win! [2] A smashing success for ten years and counting. About 1/8 of each side grew back but it's not physically possible for me to get ingrown toenails unless I intentionally try to induce them.
- vram22 9y agoUsing copper vessels to store water for drinking is somewhat common in parts of India. Seen it in Maharashtra. Lead vessels were traditionally used (and may still be) to make certain dishes (like rasam, a watery lentil-based sour soup) in South India. No idea about any benefits or the reverse. Update: Also, I've seen relatives of the previous generation to mine (in India), sometimes eating from silver plates. Not sure, but I think that may have been for some supposed health reason too (seeing sibling comment about silver reminded me of it).
- throwaway5752 9y agoJust as a PSA, lead in any quantity is toxic and particularly so for children. Copper, silver, and gold are in the same family of elements (group 11) and lead is in the carbon family. Very different characteristics. edit: I should also note (since bringing up families of elements) that - supporting your anecdote - silver has known and studied antimicrobial properties (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16766878 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16766878). Sadly it has been coopted by quacks, so there's also a lot of misinformation out there about it, too.
- smcl 9y agoNo kidding about the silver being co-opted by quacks. If "colloidal silver" is taken in any decent quantities, it'll turn you a little blue. This is a libertarian guy who's attempted to run for a couple of different positions in the USA: http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38297000/jpg/_38297733_blue_300_ap.jpg http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38297000/jpg/_38297733_bl...
- fuzzfactor 9y agoI agree, quacks were already there and silver was just what some of them gravitated towards some of the time. Turns out that non-ionic silver at concentrations of 10 to 30 ppm by weight in otherwise pure water of neutral pH will kill germs quite remarkably. Without the risk of argyria to any degree upon consuming at least a pint a day with regular sun exposure in addition. As has been known for years, the depicted politician is suffering from consumption of an overdose of silver in general, likely orders of magnitude beyond the level needed for germkilling, and also likely to have been in ionic form. One big slug of poorly-crafted material created according to any number of questionable procedures could be enough to cause this type of permanent discoloration. Probably not the kind of thing to try at home. Although it is sometimes suspected that overdoses of ionic silver occurred often enough when cooking or serving acidic foods in sterling kitchenware over the centuries to royalty, that the term "bluebloods" was coined. Also, there is some possibility the blueness used to represent some dieties in India gives a good idea of what a prototype royal figure might have looked like if too much silver was consumed intentionally or not. OTOH, a true colloid crafted after decades of professional silver electrochemistry, of known concentration as measured by state-of-the-art laboratory techniques, can be considered almost like a completely different animal. If I ever meet anyone with the guts to take it to clinical trials, I'll gladly supply the material. All it takes is one physician single-handedly at the least, as long as nobody is in a hurry, it could be done in spare time like the process was invented, no deadlines. Simply the confidence to know you can accomplish what others do not dream of doing on their own.
- jschwartzi 9y agoSo could we also make door handles out of copper, or does it only work for water storage?
- blacksmith_tb 9y agoYes, some hospitals use copper plated surfaces with good results: http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE76031820110701 http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE76031820110701
- sigstoat 9y agowe can, and we should. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_copper-alloy_touch_surfaces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_copper-alloy_tou...
- rubatuga 9y agoIn general, hospitals extensively use metal surfaces since the release of most metal ions into the bacteria/surrounding microbiome is toxic. Silver and copper are definitely the best in this regard.
- Para2016 9y agoThe copper plate on bathroom doors is for this.
- samstave 9y agoI have a copper water bottle that I bought online from India: https://i.imgur.com/3k2QBQI.jpg https://i.imgur.com/3k2QBQI.jpg I love the thing, and I was drinking water out of it... But one time I put alcohol in it... and I took a few sips from it and I almost immediately started feeling nauseous and weird... now I'm scared to use it, even for water.
- fensterblick 9y agoThat doesn't sound normal. Many alcohol stills use copper (wikipedia has this bit of information: "(a copper still) removes sulfur-based compounds from the alcohol that would make it unpleasant to drink")
- samstave 9y agoYeah, that's why I'm scared of it now... any clue how I could test it?
- thatcat 9y agoWhat are the sides sealed with? Alcohol is a good solvent so it may be an adhesive flavor youve tasted. You could check the density if you think its not actually copper material though.
- peterwwillis 9y agoThere are copper testing kits for aquarium water, but your health isn't really worth risking with a $10 aquarium test. Throw it away and buy a new one, and research how to properly handle copper cookware.
- rblatz 9y agoA Moscow Mule is typically served in a copper mug, and I'd think the negative effects from the alcohol would be the primary thing to worry about.
- peterwwillis 9y ago
- redm 9y agoBecause of copper's antibacterial properties, I investigated putting copper sink faucets in my house remodel. While it's true that it works well initially, over item film builds up on the surface preventing the benefits. You have to clean them constantly to get the benefit.
- gumby 9y agoCopper pots have interesting properties. For a long time I had read (and scoffed) that eggs should be whipped in a copper pot for best results. But it turns out that when you do that, striking the side of the pot liberates electrons that bond with the albumin and make the protein stiffer. As for the comment about silver: it does have some antimicrobial properties. I'm amazed the effect is noticeable at the macro level of eating utensils.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago> striking the side of the pot liberates electrons that bond with the albumin and make the protein stiffer Have a source? I'm curious if one can "cook" an egg by submersing it in cold water through which a current is run.
- Tomminn 9y agoI think it's the whole copper atoms[1] that get liberated and bind the proteins. [1] https://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v308/n5960/abs/308667a0.html https://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v308/n5960/abs/308667a...
- gumby 9y agoThanks for digging this up. I should have guessed it was McGee who figured this out. He's an amazing scientist (and cook).
- nashashmi 9y agoAnyone wanna theorize why? Seeing some of the comments here about silver and gold tells me it might have something to with the high conductivity of these metals. As electrons flow through them, the germs are dying.
- bobbington 9y agoInterestingly this is also apparently why a copper IUD works - the copper kills sperm cells. https://www.bustle.com/articles/144818-the-one-thing-nobody-tells-you-about-the-copper-iud https://www.bustle.com/articles/144818-the-one-thing-nobody-...
- epmaybe 9y agoMakes me wonder, is there a way to make sure that no copper is still present after the microbes are all dead? Like throw some penicillamine in there to chelate the exact quantity of copper dissolved?
- CalChris 9y agoCopper has been used as a biocide in antifouling paints on boat bottoms for decades. The USS Constitution was copper bottomed in 1797. https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/2015/08/12/copperbottomed/ https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/2015/08/12/copperbottomed/
- freeflight 9y agoSounds like a way more expensive version of SoDis [0] Why use expensive copper when you could instead recycle, otherwise useless, PET bottles to do a similar job? The only potential drawback I can think off is that some PET bottles seem to leak "hormone-like chemicals" [1]. Tho, reading trough the comments copper pots also seem to have some toxic effect on the water. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_water_disinfection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_water_disinfection [1] http://www.npr.org/2011/03/02/134196209/study-most-plastics-leach-hormone-like-chemicals http://www.npr.org/2011/03/02/134196209/study-most-plastics-...
- tokenadult 9y agoWhat follow-up has there been on this since the 2012 publication in a rather obscure journal? Most importantly, is there a source of copper vessels in most countries that is as inexpensive as other means of reducing bacterial load in drinking water?
- adictator 9y agoThis has been quite routine knowledge in India. My parents' families have routinely been using Copper vessels to store water. The ones who are better off actually use Silver utensils to eat & drink food / water.
- theprop 9y agoProbably a good idea thus to use all copper pipes in your home!! Using copper vessels would've been great in an era where there weren't industrial pollutants like lead or PFOAs or other things...nowadays in India just a copper vessel wouldn't be sufficient. In the US as well there are various contaminants in water supplies all over the country from PFOAs to lead so it's a good idea to use a water filter or such. I don't think there's much danger of bacteria in US drinking water.
- Tyr42 9y agoThere was a problem with scurvy when people stored the lime as juice in copper containers and completely removed the vitamin C in the process.
- ethn 9y agoA few years ago GeorgiaTech† created a special anti-bacterial copper alloy (Cu-PANI††), which is now significantly used in the Atlanta Airport drinking water pipings. [†] https://www.truepani.com https://www.truepani.com [††] http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/am507746m http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/am507746m