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> postmarketOS is a GNU/Linux distribution, so there's no problem in having multiple phone interfaces (just like KDE/Gnome/XFCE/...) and let the user choose. I

> postmarketOS is a GNU/Linux distribution, so there's no problem in having multiple phone interfaces (just like KDE/Gnome/XFCE/...) and let the user choose. IMO, there is a big problem with that. The WHOLE reason the smartphone space finally took off was because Apple came in and rationalized the interaction model and implemented a robust, responsive UI. Android is successful largely to the extent it faithfully aped that model. Treating this as a secondary thing your project doesn't need to be opinionated on is a recipe for failure.

ollieparanoid 9y ago
The ability to choose between multiple desktops does not mean, that each desktop itself is inconsistent. For example, you have the consistent Apple interface. And you have the consistent Android interface. If the user could choose between both on the same device, why would that be a problem?
- seanp2k2 9y ago
  Focus. Apple and Google have hundreds or thousands of engineers working on these operating systems, full time, for years. To get this project to even 1/10th of the quality would be a massive undertaking. Open source mobile OSes do not have a great track record right now. It'd be amazing to have a real option with a solid development and user base behind it.
  - ollieparanoid 9y ago
    Yep. I have not fully decided yet on which part I will work next (that sort of depends on the feedback by the community). But I definitely want a solid base.
Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
Not every project has to appeal to the mass market. It's okay to make stuff that only a hacker would find cool!
- icantdrive55 9y ago
  Imagine a true hacker phone. Something that could handle Kali? Something a user could take apart, and modify.
- clock_tower 9y ago
  But the whole point of this project is to appeal to the mass market, and give smartphones a ten-year life cycle. They're explicitly aiming at a much wider userbase than hackers alone.
  - ollieparanoid 9y ago
    Where does it say that?
    - trafficlight 9y ago
      The headline?
      - diggernet 9y ago
        The headline does not mention mass market.
        lbatx 9y ago
        Do you think that hackers as a market aren't, by near definition, early adopters and want new technology? I don't know who else a 10 year old phone would appeal to but parts of the mass market?
        reitanqild 9y ago
        We are both. Yes, we are some of the people who line up for new stuff. Yes, we are also some of the people who keep old stuff running.
        detaro 9y ago
swiley 9y ago
99% of the time when it's not a game a curses GUI or a readline UI is just fine. Really, I'm tired of all this UI "inovation." just give me a TTY already, it works fine on my laptop and it would work fine on my phone if everything weren't all tied up in closed blobs. This only works if other people can use KDE if they want all the flashy stuff.
- twisted-tea 9y ago
  My phone is basically just Termux at this point. I still use the gui for making and receiving calls and for web browsing but for all other purposes it is just a portable TTY.
  - symlinkk 9y ago
    lmao is this satire? how would you accurately type commands with such a tiny keyboard without tactile feedback? and how would that be faster than tapping on an icon?
    - sattoshi 9y ago
      I am slowly emulating the parent poster. I don't make typos anymore. Termux always pubished me for them so I learned to be precise. I still work mostly with gui because I do not have autism but easily a quarter of my time is spent in Termux.
      - a_t48 9y ago
        You mean "punished"?
      - symlinkk 9y ago
        what commands do you regularly use on your phone?
        sattoshi 9y ago
        ssh to some machine and then do whatever I need to do. Whether it is to patch something while on the move or whatever else I need to do.
drieddust 9y ago
>The WHOLE reason the smartphone space finally took off was because Apple came in and rationalized the interaction model and implemented a robust, responsive UI I don't think that's the whole truth. Apple became successful because efficient and powerful mobile hardware arrived to support Apple. Just because one paradigm worked, should we stop and treat it as gospel. Perhaps there might be others waiting to be discovered.
- adrianmonk 9y ago
  Apple waited to enter the market until it could practicably make a mobile device with a web browser that didn't require mobile versions of web sites. (Sure, mobile optimized is better, but the iPhone could at least load and zoom in on regular sites.) Whether this was entirely intentional or not, I can't say for sure, but they certainly emphasized it at launch, and they designed a device with a screen that was huge enough, and it worked out great. Turns out the web was the killer app for the internet, and it was the killer app for smartphones too.
morganvachon 9y ago
> The WHOLE reason the smartphone space finally took off was because Apple came in and rationalized the interaction model and implemented a robust, responsive UI. I see this "fact" thrown about all the time by under-30s who only ever knew of the iPhone since they were teens. The iPhone OS interface, as it first existed, faithfully aped the Palm Garnet OS, which was the latest iteration of Palm's highly successful OS going all the way back to the late 90s. Before there were smartphones there were PDAs, and while it's debatable that Apple invented the PDA with the Newton, the platform didn't become a commercial success until US Robotics released the PalmPilot and PalmPilot Professional. When Handspring successfully melded the Palm OS with cellphone hardware creating the Treo, the touch controlled, icon based, modal fullscreen app "smartphone interface" as we know it was created. Palm bought Handspring and pivoted to improving the Treo line of smartphones, culminating in the Treo 600 and 700 series. Speaking of responsiveness, while Palm's own devices were fairly standard and could be sluggish, Sony's Clie line made Palm OS feel almost as fast and fluid as the modern iOS interface. The hardware was expensive but it was the absolute best handheld computer you could buy in the early to mid 2000s. The first time I used the original iPhone I still owned a Clie NX70V, and the Clie was less jittery than the iPhone if I had a lot of apps open on both devices. That's not even touching on Nokia's Symbian, arguably the best selling smartphone OS in history, but Symbian never resembled Palm OS, Android, or iPhone OS until after those systems became widespread. So no, Apple never invented anything in this space; they took what already existed, polished the hardware, correctly implemented multitouch, and applied Jobs' marketing magic. I drank the Kool-aid and bought the original iPhone soon after its release. I ended up promptly selling it and going back to my Treo to get real work done when I realized the iPhone was nothing more than a (arguably excellent) mobile web browser. It wasn't until Apple finally started allowing apps (something Palm supported from the beginning) that the "modern" smartphone revolution really began. Even then, hardware improvements were driven by Android based devices, with Apple always playing catch-up.
- wilg 9y ago
  Here is a picture of Palm Garnet OS which apparently Apple "faithfully aped": http://www.palminfocenter.com/images/palm-garnet-vm-1.jpg http://www.palminfocenter.com/images/palm-garnet-vm-1.jpg Do you think that both interfaces are the same simply because they are "touch controlled" and "icon based"? Also, saying there were other worse phones before the iPhone came out does not refute the point that the reason the space "finally took off" was because of Apple.
Zigurd 9y ago
Hear, hear. I would add that Android has suffered to the extent it enabled OEMs to make choices and modify Android. There are plenty of places, like camera software, where OEMs should go crazy trying to make differentiation in their products. Core UI isn't one of them.
cel1ne 9y ago
About the question whether Apple has invented a better UI and whether someone else did or could have done the same: Regardless what you think about UI-paradigms or vendor lock-in, there is something that Apple spends far more time on than others to get right: Papercuts [0]. Every interface comes with a thousand little annoyances that distract and increase cognitive load. Apple tries to bring this number to zero. You have to find managers and developers willing to reserve a LOT of time for these "trivialities", but ultimately that summed-up effort is what makes their computers so convenient to use. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_cut_bug https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_cut_bug

ollieparanoid 9y ago

The ability to choose between multiple desktops does not mean, that each desktop itself is inconsistent. For example, you have the consistent Apple interface. And you have the consistent Android interface. If the user could choose between both on the same device, why would that be a problem?

seanp2k2 9y ago
Focus. Apple and Google have hundreds or thousands of engineers working on these operating systems, full time, for years. To get this project to even 1/10th of the quality would be a massive undertaking. Open source mobile OSes do not have a great track record right now. It'd be amazing to have a real option with a solid development and user base behind it.
- ollieparanoid 9y ago
  Yep. I have not fully decided yet on which part I will work next (that sort of depends on the feedback by the community). But I definitely want a solid base.

Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago

Not every project has to appeal to the mass market. It's okay to make stuff that only a hacker would find cool!

icantdrive55 9y ago
Imagine a true hacker phone. Something that could handle Kali? Something a user could take apart, and modify.
clock_tower 9y ago
But the whole point of this project is to appeal to the mass market, and give smartphones a ten-year life cycle. They're explicitly aiming at a much wider userbase than hackers alone.
- ollieparanoid 9y ago
  Where does it say that?
  - trafficlight 9y ago
    The headline?
    - diggernet 9y ago
      The headline does not mention mass market.
      - lbatx 9y ago
        Do you think that hackers as a market aren't, by near definition, early adopters and want new technology? I don't know who else a 10 year old phone would appeal to but parts of the mass market?
        reitanqild 9y ago
        We are both. Yes, we are some of the people who line up for new stuff. Yes, we are also some of the people who keep old stuff running.
        detaro 9y ago

swiley 9y ago

99% of the time when it's not a game a curses GUI or a readline UI is just fine. Really, I'm tired of all this UI "inovation." just give me a TTY already, it works fine on my laptop and it would work fine on my phone if everything weren't all tied up in closed blobs. This only works if other people can use KDE if they want all the flashy stuff.

twisted-tea 9y ago
My phone is basically just Termux at this point. I still use the gui for making and receiving calls and for web browsing but for all other purposes it is just a portable TTY.
- symlinkk 9y ago
  lmao is this satire? how would you accurately type commands with such a tiny keyboard without tactile feedback? and how would that be faster than tapping on an icon?
  - sattoshi 9y ago
    I am slowly emulating the parent poster. I don't make typos anymore. Termux always pubished me for them so I learned to be precise. I still work mostly with gui because I do not have autism but easily a quarter of my time is spent in Termux.
    - a_t48 9y ago
      You mean "punished"?
    - symlinkk 9y ago
      what commands do you regularly use on your phone?
      - sattoshi 9y ago
        ssh to some machine and then do whatever I need to do. Whether it is to patch something while on the move or whatever else I need to do.

drieddust 9y ago

>The WHOLE reason the smartphone space finally took off was because Apple came in and rationalized the interaction model and implemented a robust, responsive UI I don't think that's the whole truth. Apple became successful because efficient and powerful mobile hardware arrived to support Apple. Just because one paradigm worked, should we stop and treat it as gospel. Perhaps there might be others waiting to be discovered.

adrianmonk 9y ago
Apple waited to enter the market until it could practicably make a mobile device with a web browser that didn't require mobile versions of web sites. (Sure, mobile optimized is better, but the iPhone could at least load and zoom in on regular sites.) Whether this was entirely intentional or not, I can't say for sure, but they certainly emphasized it at launch, and they designed a device with a screen that was huge enough, and it worked out great. Turns out the web was the killer app for the internet, and it was the killer app for smartphones too.

morganvachon 9y ago

> The WHOLE reason the smartphone space finally took off was because Apple came in and rationalized the interaction model and implemented a robust, responsive UI. I see this "fact" thrown about all the time by under-30s who only ever knew of the iPhone since they were teens. The iPhone OS interface, as it first existed, faithfully aped the Palm Garnet OS, which was the latest iteration of Palm's highly successful OS going all the way back to the late 90s. Before there were smartphones there were PDAs, and while it's debatable that Apple invented the PDA with the Newton, the platform didn't become a commercial success until US Robotics released the PalmPilot and PalmPilot Professional. When Handspring successfully melded the Palm OS with cellphone hardware creating the Treo, the touch controlled, icon based, modal fullscreen app "smartphone interface" as we know it was created. Palm bought Handspring and pivoted to improving the Treo line of smartphones, culminating in the Treo 600 and 700 series. Speaking of responsiveness, while Palm's own devices were fairly standard and could be sluggish, Sony's Clie line made Palm OS feel almost as fast and fluid as the modern iOS interface. The hardware was expensive but it was the absolute best handheld computer you could buy in the early to mid 2000s. The first time I used the original iPhone I still owned a Clie NX70V, and the Clie was less jittery than the iPhone if I had a lot of apps open on both devices. That's not even touching on Nokia's Symbian, arguably the best selling smartphone OS in history, but Symbian never resembled Palm OS, Android, or iPhone OS until after those systems became widespread. So no, Apple never invented anything in this space; they took what already existed, polished the hardware, correctly implemented multitouch, and applied Jobs' marketing magic. I drank the Kool-aid and bought the original iPhone soon after its release. I ended up promptly selling it and going back to my Treo to get real work done when I realized the iPhone was nothing more than a (arguably excellent) mobile web browser. It wasn't until Apple finally started allowing apps (something Palm supported from the beginning) that the "modern" smartphone revolution really began. Even then, hardware improvements were driven by Android based devices, with Apple always playing catch-up.

wilg 9y ago
Here is a picture of Palm Garnet OS which apparently Apple "faithfully aped": http://www.palminfocenter.com/images/palm-garnet-vm-1.jpg http://www.palminfocenter.com/images/palm-garnet-vm-1.jpg Do you think that both interfaces are the same simply because they are "touch controlled" and "icon based"? Also, saying there were other worse phones before the iPhone came out does not refute the point that the reason the space "finally took off" was because of Apple.

Zigurd 9y ago

Hear, hear. I would add that Android has suffered to the extent it enabled OEMs to make choices and modify Android. There are plenty of places, like camera software, where OEMs should go crazy trying to make differentiation in their products. Core UI isn't one of them.

cel1ne 9y ago

About the question whether Apple has invented a better UI and whether someone else did or could have done the same: Regardless what you think about UI-paradigms or vendor lock-in, there is something that Apple spends far more time on than others to get right: Papercuts [0]. Every interface comes with a thousand little annoyances that distract and increase cognitive load. Apple tries to bring this number to zero. You have to find managers and developers willing to reserve a LOT of time for these "trivialities", but ultimately that summed-up effort is what makes their computers so convenient to use. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_cut_bug https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_cut_bug