4 ms·

Chipreaders are terribly slow, I don't understand how they could not develop a secure payment system without 10-second~ delay times. My local grocery store inst

Chipreaders are terribly slow, I don't understand how they could not develop a secure payment system without 10-second~ delay times. My local grocery store installed new chip readers and within a week had taped over time in favor of the more-expensive but quicker stripe processing.

heywire 9y ago
Unfortunately when you need the chip in the card to sign the transaction details before sending to the bank, validate the response from the bank, and all of the steps in between, it takes a lot of time. There is a ton of work going into making this process faster. Things like EMV Quick Chip and contactless EMV (tap and pay) are quicker, and should be coming to retailers in the US soon. Of course we also have the option of Apple/Android Pay, which is somewhere in the middle.
saidajigumi 9y ago
Hilariously, using contactless EMV payment (i.e. Apple/Android Pay) with the same POS terminals is lightning fast. But this gets filed as "infrastructure is hard". A related example: If you get a chance, try the IC card system used by the train and transit systems in Japan; they're delightful.[1] At peak rush-hour, commuters are darn near running through the (many) pay stations tapping through without breaking stride -- including display of remaining balance! Yet, the relatively recent transit tap card system where I live is laughingly slow. At a much more modest walking pace, it's easy to pull away from the reader before it's confirmed the transaction. Seconds per commuter, for system that's considerably newer than the IC card system.
- heywire 9y ago
  Something to keep in mind is that Apple/Android Pay support both MSD (magnetic stripe data) and EMV contactless modes, which can result in different timings. EMV contactless also drops significant portions of the EMV contact requirements. This is why banks generally won't let you get cash back, or make large purchases on contactless, there's a trade off.
  - rconti 9y ago
    I've actually found it to be better; no tradeoffs. I haven't tried cash back as I use credit cards rather than debit cards. I've used Apple Pay in the US, Canada, NZ, Australia, Germany, Sweden, and Denmark, and it's ALWAYS preferably to using the actual card, particularly for an American. If you have a US based bank, even with EMV the bank prefers a signature, which means you have to sign the damn receipt. This is more inconvenient than doing so in the US because: 1. The merchants aren't used to it, so it's a surprise/hurdle 2. It's not common, so you have to sign an actual receipt, not an electric display 3. They don't seem to waive the signature requirement for small purchases ($25-$50) as they do in the US. So you're signing for EVERYTHING. Magically, if you try to use your US-card-with-a-PIN (assuming you set one up) in an unmanned scenario like in a parking garage, SUDDENLY YOUR PIN WORKS! (quelle surprise!) I also fell in love with the convenience of Apple Pay+Watch when I was skiing in Whistler; no need to take off my gloves, unzip a pocket, reach in, find, card, use card, sign receipt. Just a quick double-tap on the side button without even undoing my glove gauntlet, velcro closure around the wrist of my jacket, or any of my 5 layers of clothes (yes, it was cold). Paywave was the most-commonly accepted in Australia of everywhere I've been recently, to the extent that they even tap your credit card to the machine first, assuming it will work, and are surprised when it doesn't. Yet they were VERY surprised by the watch, often saying they had never seen anyone use their watch before. I'm not sure if contactless+phone would have been as unexpected or not; I never tried.
- mmanfrin 9y ago
  I love Android Pay. If a place accepts it, I 100% use it over a card. It's near instantaneous, it's more secure (the merchant isn't getting my real card data), it's easy for me to audit, and it means I don't need my wallet when I go to the store.
Veratyr 9y ago
Weirdly, I've only really noticed this in the US. Back in Australia where we've been using chips for about a decade, I rarely remember it taking more than a couple of seconds, certainly not 10. We also have contactless payment on most of our credit cards (as in built into the card, not Android/Apple Pay) and support for it on ~90% of terminals as well though so it's not much used anymore.
- sanswork 9y ago
  American card terminals pretty much universally suck compared to everywhere else in the western world so it's not that surprising to me. According to staff at a few shops in my area when asked why they always ask if tap to pay is ok they said a lot of people still don't allow them to tap and insist on chip+pin still.
  - Veratyr 9y ago
    You mean in Australia? Yeah, I worked in retail while I lived there and it was pretty common. People seemed to think that using it would somehow make them more vulnerable to thieves for some reason. I even had friends who called the bank to exchange their card for one that didn't do contactless.
    - icantdrive55 9y ago
      The companies did a terrible job of advertising all the new technology. "Just use it--for convenience. Trust us!" If I want convince, I use cash. I stopped using credit cards, but still have a debt card, with a chip. Actually it's a credit card too, but never asked for it. When the bank sent me the new card, they just said it was better. Not how to use it, or why it's better; just here's your new card. It's gotten to the point where I only use it for online purchases, and then only to specific retailers--basically Amazon, Google, and if I'm in a trusting mood PayPal. Even though I'm in tech, I don't know how all the other technology works, nor care too know at this point. My security is checking my bank account, and looking for suspicious transactions. The days of trying new technology tied to my meager amount of money is gone. The days of trusting retailers with my information is gone. I do sometimes feel bad for the little retailer/website though. I just don't trust them anymore. I don't trust banks, and would go back to completely cash(buried in tin cans), if I lived somewhere remote. Progress?
bpicolo 9y ago
I've encountered a few that only took a second or two. No idea why most of them are slow as crap given that. The ones at Starbucks (and others by that company) are terribly slow
com2kid 9y ago
Walgreen's has lightening fast chip readers. Everyone else, yeah, pretty slow. I am surprised that apparently only 1 vendor has figured out how to make a good chip reader, and I am sad that apparently other retailers don't care enough to buy from that one vendor.
amenghra 9y ago
You can do EMV in under 4 seconds. Source: https://squareup.com/townsquare/weve-chipped-away-at-emv-transaction-speed-and-were-not-done https://squareup.com/townsquare/weve-chipped-away-at-emv-tra... and http://www.digitaltransactions.net/news/story/With-an-Update_-Square-Shaves-More-Seconds-From-Contact-EMV-Processing-Time http://www.digitaltransactions.net/news/story/With-an-Update...
acchow 9y ago
Have you used Square's chip reader? Wicked fast recently.
sathackr 9y ago
The problem with them is they force another prompt, which takes time to read, comprehend, and respond to. Prompt #1: Credit/Debit? Prompt #2: PIN Prompt #3: Would you like cash back Prompt #4: The total is $xx.xx, ok? This is time consuming, particularly for people who aren't as comfortable with electronics and pressing buttons. And on top of that, many times the terminals themselves are slow. Pay-at-the pumps are even worse Prompt #5: Are you a fuel perks member? Prompt #6: Receipt yes/no? Prompt #7: Would you like a car wash? and they're often even slower, the buttons are often hard to press, or don't register a beep and have a delay before the machine responds, so you wind up pressing the same one twice. And most lack a 'backspace', the screens suck, man don't get me started....lol

heywire 9y ago

Unfortunately when you need the chip in the card to sign the transaction details before sending to the bank, validate the response from the bank, and all of the steps in between, it takes a lot of time. There is a ton of work going into making this process faster. Things like EMV Quick Chip and contactless EMV (tap and pay) are quicker, and should be coming to retailers in the US soon. Of course we also have the option of Apple/Android Pay, which is somewhere in the middle.

saidajigumi 9y ago

Hilariously, using contactless EMV payment (i.e. Apple/Android Pay) with the same POS terminals is lightning fast. But this gets filed as "infrastructure is hard". A related example: If you get a chance, try the IC card system used by the train and transit systems in Japan; they're delightful.[1] At peak rush-hour, commuters are darn near running through the (many) pay stations tapping through without breaking stride -- including display of remaining balance! Yet, the relatively recent transit tap card system where I live is laughingly slow. At a much more modest walking pace, it's easy to pull away from the reader before it's confirmed the transaction. Seconds per commuter, for system that's considerably newer than the IC card system.

heywire 9y ago
Something to keep in mind is that Apple/Android Pay support both MSD (magnetic stripe data) and EMV contactless modes, which can result in different timings. EMV contactless also drops significant portions of the EMV contact requirements. This is why banks generally won't let you get cash back, or make large purchases on contactless, there's a trade off.
- rconti 9y ago
  I've actually found it to be better; no tradeoffs. I haven't tried cash back as I use credit cards rather than debit cards. I've used Apple Pay in the US, Canada, NZ, Australia, Germany, Sweden, and Denmark, and it's ALWAYS preferably to using the actual card, particularly for an American. If you have a US based bank, even with EMV the bank prefers a signature, which means you have to sign the damn receipt. This is more inconvenient than doing so in the US because: 1. The merchants aren't used to it, so it's a surprise/hurdle 2. It's not common, so you have to sign an actual receipt, not an electric display 3. They don't seem to waive the signature requirement for small purchases ($25-$50) as they do in the US. So you're signing for EVERYTHING. Magically, if you try to use your US-card-with-a-PIN (assuming you set one up) in an unmanned scenario like in a parking garage, SUDDENLY YOUR PIN WORKS! (quelle surprise!) I also fell in love with the convenience of Apple Pay+Watch when I was skiing in Whistler; no need to take off my gloves, unzip a pocket, reach in, find, card, use card, sign receipt. Just a quick double-tap on the side button without even undoing my glove gauntlet, velcro closure around the wrist of my jacket, or any of my 5 layers of clothes (yes, it was cold). Paywave was the most-commonly accepted in Australia of everywhere I've been recently, to the extent that they even tap your credit card to the machine first, assuming it will work, and are surprised when it doesn't. Yet they were VERY surprised by the watch, often saying they had never seen anyone use their watch before. I'm not sure if contactless+phone would have been as unexpected or not; I never tried.
mmanfrin 9y ago
I love Android Pay. If a place accepts it, I 100% use it over a card. It's near instantaneous, it's more secure (the merchant isn't getting my real card data), it's easy for me to audit, and it means I don't need my wallet when I go to the store.

Veratyr 9y ago

Weirdly, I've only really noticed this in the US. Back in Australia where we've been using chips for about a decade, I rarely remember it taking more than a couple of seconds, certainly not 10. We also have contactless payment on most of our credit cards (as in built into the card, not Android/Apple Pay) and support for it on ~90% of terminals as well though so it's not much used anymore.

sanswork 9y ago
American card terminals pretty much universally suck compared to everywhere else in the western world so it's not that surprising to me. According to staff at a few shops in my area when asked why they always ask if tap to pay is ok they said a lot of people still don't allow them to tap and insist on chip+pin still.
- Veratyr 9y ago
  You mean in Australia? Yeah, I worked in retail while I lived there and it was pretty common. People seemed to think that using it would somehow make them more vulnerable to thieves for some reason. I even had friends who called the bank to exchange their card for one that didn't do contactless.
  - icantdrive55 9y ago
    The companies did a terrible job of advertising all the new technology. "Just use it--for convenience. Trust us!" If I want convince, I use cash. I stopped using credit cards, but still have a debt card, with a chip. Actually it's a credit card too, but never asked for it. When the bank sent me the new card, they just said it was better. Not how to use it, or why it's better; just here's your new card. It's gotten to the point where I only use it for online purchases, and then only to specific retailers--basically Amazon, Google, and if I'm in a trusting mood PayPal. Even though I'm in tech, I don't know how all the other technology works, nor care too know at this point. My security is checking my bank account, and looking for suspicious transactions. The days of trying new technology tied to my meager amount of money is gone. The days of trusting retailers with my information is gone. I do sometimes feel bad for the little retailer/website though. I just don't trust them anymore. I don't trust banks, and would go back to completely cash(buried in tin cans), if I lived somewhere remote. Progress?

bpicolo 9y ago

I've encountered a few that only took a second or two. No idea why most of them are slow as crap given that. The ones at Starbucks (and others by that company) are terribly slow

com2kid 9y ago

Walgreen's has lightening fast chip readers. Everyone else, yeah, pretty slow. I am surprised that apparently only 1 vendor has figured out how to make a good chip reader, and I am sad that apparently other retailers don't care enough to buy from that one vendor.

amenghra 9y ago

You can do EMV in under 4 seconds. Source: https://squareup.com/townsquare/weve-chipped-away-at-emv-transaction-speed-and-were-not-done https://squareup.com/townsquare/weve-chipped-away-at-emv-tra... and http://www.digitaltransactions.net/news/story/With-an-Update_-Square-Shaves-More-Seconds-From-Contact-EMV-Processing-Time http://www.digitaltransactions.net/news/story/With-an-Update...

acchow 9y ago

Have you used Square's chip reader? Wicked fast recently.

sathackr 9y ago

The problem with them is they force another prompt, which takes time to read, comprehend, and respond to. Prompt #1: Credit/Debit? Prompt #2: PIN Prompt #3: Would you like cash back Prompt #4: The total is $xx.xx, ok? This is time consuming, particularly for people who aren't as comfortable with electronics and pressing buttons. And on top of that, many times the terminals themselves are slow. Pay-at-the pumps are even worse Prompt #5: Are you a fuel perks member? Prompt #6: Receipt yes/no? Prompt #7: Would you like a car wash? and they're often even slower, the buttons are often hard to press, or don't register a beep and have a delay before the machine responds, so you wind up pressing the same one twice. And most lack a 'backspace', the screens suck, man don't get me started....lol