4 ms·

If they're going to the trouble of pre-arranging the ride, why don't they just use cash/Venmo/Square, and keep Uber's cut of the fare?

will_pseudonym 9y ago
That's what I would do with my driver. She'd arrive, and I would look up an Uber cost estimate, and then pay her cash for the average amount I was quoted. I also could ask her to run errands for me, using this same system.
- giarc 9y ago
  It seems like there is no benefit to you at all. Paying the average amount means you're paying more than some fares. By paying cash, you lose out on all insurance in cash of an accident.
  - eigenvector 9y ago
    The benefit is that you can deal with a trusted driver rather than someone that takes 3 wrong turns on the way there then misses the exit for the airport.
    - giarc 9y ago
      You are missing the details here. OP is suggesting that they get an Uber/Lyft driver then instead of paying through the app, pay with cash. Same driver, just no insurance.
- stupidhn 9y ago
  "my driver" What a world we live in. Most of the country (and planet) is so broke they are just scraping by, while programmers have "drivers" and personal shoppers. Wouldn't want to distract those people who have to get to work every day to figure out how to sell the poor people ads!
hkmurakami 9y ago
Yes I wonder what makes this different from the Homejoy situation
- kyleschiller 9y ago
  With Homejoy, you could build a relationship with a single housekeeper, and arrange for them to come once a month. If you're using Uber to commute, it's absolutely the same and very worth cutting out the middle man. The rest of the time, if you need a ride at a time/place that isn't regular, the driver you know might be far away, might not be driving at that time and might be driving someone else, so it will generally be worth it to pay a premium.
- giarc 9y ago
  The difference with Homejoy was that many people on their site already had existing cleaning companies. They were using Homejoy for customer acquisition. Once that customer was acquired, there was no need for Homejoy. Once Homejoy was out of the picture, the cleaners regular liability insurance would still be in play. Obviously there were some cleaners that did not have a business. The difference with Uber/Lyft is that these drivers don't have a business outside of the app. Therefore, once you eliminate the app, you eliminate their commercial insurance and it becomes a really interesting situation if there were ever an accident.
  - kcanini 9y ago
    > The difference with Uber/Lyft is that these drivers don't have a business outside of the app. Doesn't this discredit Uber's argument that drivers are independent contractors?
    - giarc 9y ago
      Perhaps - but that's outside the scope of this specific discussion about sidestepping the app and paying under the table so to speak.
BinaryIdiot 9y ago
I've had at least a dozen Uber drivers suggest something similar when I road with them more than once. Almost all of them wanted to setup something so I'd pay less and they'd make more. I hadn't done it as I usually don't need Uber / Lyft much but most of the people I know who have used Uber / Lyft have also gotten similar offers so it must be pretty common I would think.
- cdrark 9y ago
  That works until there is any sort of an accident and the driver's insurance doesn't cover them operating their vehicle as a business. Part of the commission that gets paid goes to providing insurance.
  - kcanini 9y ago
    I imagine that when reporting it to the police/insurance agency, many (most?) drivers would omit the fact that they were driving for business purposes when the accident occurred. Not saying this is legal/ethical, just that it would come to mind in that situation.
    - s73ver 9y ago
      Driver probably would. But would the passenger?
    - stupidhn 9y ago
      So who pays for any medical costs? Not sure I'd base my livelihood on fraud.
  - criddell 9y ago
    Is it different than when I give a friend with a truck $50 to help me get mulch from Home Depot to my house on a Saturday morning?
    - cdrark 9y ago
      If that friend got into an accident while driving to Home Depot for you, would you pay their insurance deductible? If they got hurt would you pay their medical bills? Would you do the same for your off the books taxi driver?
SilasX 9y ago
Assuming you mean, other than the ethical concerns? A) Who's insuring the ride? If it's not insured and the driver is at fault in a collision, there could be no one to pay for injuries to you -- Lyft/Uber certainly wouldn't owe anything for stuff booked outside their platform. Usually when they drive for a TNC, the TNC provides the insurance for the driver in the course of using the app. It's really unlikely for the driver to have a policy that covers them for non-TNC freelance rides -- especially since the big insurers haven't caught up to the realities of this use case and seriously overprice them. (AIUI, they just have policies that assume you drive full time commercially, nothing that works on a per mile basis -- and even if they do have such policies, that would defeat most of the purpose of cutting out middlemen, as there would now be a written record of the transaction that can't be hidden on taxes.) B) In order to get enough information to re-book out-of-band you'd have to accept it and then cancel. Do that a lot and it will be grounds for being kicked off the platform. (The same applies to the people in the anecdotes in the sibling comments.)
- jngreenlee 9y ago
  This is a great point: Who's insuring the ride? [..] Lyft/Uber certainly wouldn't owe anything for stuff booked outside their platform. Most drivers have a "Rideshare Rider" from their auto insurance provider...but not sure if it extends to off-service rides
  - stupidhn 9y ago
    Your standard auto insurance is not going to cover using your car as a taxi. It will have to be disclosed, and you will pay for it. The calculus is simple: liabltiy has increased and you have responsibility due to the commercial transaction.
- sanderjd 9y ago
  Out of curiosity, what are the ethical concerns? The arrangement is not being made by the middleman company. I don't see how it is unethical to not pay them for something they did not do. Point (B) doesn't make sense to me. Why do you have to accept and then cancel? You just get the driver's phone number and talk to them directly. In fact, if this is not common already, I think it undermines the contention of these companies that they are merely a service being provided to independent contractors. If drivers are independent contractors, of course they should be trying to build their own brand and dedicated clientele. Point (A) is a good one, though. Sounds like there should be independent insurance providers that these independent contractors can use. If you're instead saying that drivers are employees of these companies, then maybe you're right about all the rest of it. But you can't have it both ways!
spraak 9y ago
In Thailand I used GrabTaxi and once I found a driver whom I got along with, I got their personal number and would do this very thing. It worked well for them and me! But then Grab missed out :/

will_pseudonym 9y ago

That's what I would do with my driver. She'd arrive, and I would look up an Uber cost estimate, and then pay her cash for the average amount I was quoted. I also could ask her to run errands for me, using this same system.

giarc 9y ago
It seems like there is no benefit to you at all. Paying the average amount means you're paying more than some fares. By paying cash, you lose out on all insurance in cash of an accident.
- eigenvector 9y ago
  The benefit is that you can deal with a trusted driver rather than someone that takes 3 wrong turns on the way there then misses the exit for the airport.
  - giarc 9y ago
    You are missing the details here. OP is suggesting that they get an Uber/Lyft driver then instead of paying through the app, pay with cash. Same driver, just no insurance.
stupidhn 9y ago
"my driver" What a world we live in. Most of the country (and planet) is so broke they are just scraping by, while programmers have "drivers" and personal shoppers. Wouldn't want to distract those people who have to get to work every day to figure out how to sell the poor people ads!

hkmurakami 9y ago

Yes I wonder what makes this different from the Homejoy situation

kyleschiller 9y ago
With Homejoy, you could build a relationship with a single housekeeper, and arrange for them to come once a month. If you're using Uber to commute, it's absolutely the same and very worth cutting out the middle man. The rest of the time, if you need a ride at a time/place that isn't regular, the driver you know might be far away, might not be driving at that time and might be driving someone else, so it will generally be worth it to pay a premium.
giarc 9y ago
The difference with Homejoy was that many people on their site already had existing cleaning companies. They were using Homejoy for customer acquisition. Once that customer was acquired, there was no need for Homejoy. Once Homejoy was out of the picture, the cleaners regular liability insurance would still be in play. Obviously there were some cleaners that did not have a business. The difference with Uber/Lyft is that these drivers don't have a business outside of the app. Therefore, once you eliminate the app, you eliminate their commercial insurance and it becomes a really interesting situation if there were ever an accident.
- kcanini 9y ago
  > The difference with Uber/Lyft is that these drivers don't have a business outside of the app. Doesn't this discredit Uber's argument that drivers are independent contractors?
  - giarc 9y ago
    Perhaps - but that's outside the scope of this specific discussion about sidestepping the app and paying under the table so to speak.

BinaryIdiot 9y ago

I've had at least a dozen Uber drivers suggest something similar when I road with them more than once. Almost all of them wanted to setup something so I'd pay less and they'd make more. I hadn't done it as I usually don't need Uber / Lyft much but most of the people I know who have used Uber / Lyft have also gotten similar offers so it must be pretty common I would think.

cdrark 9y ago
That works until there is any sort of an accident and the driver's insurance doesn't cover them operating their vehicle as a business. Part of the commission that gets paid goes to providing insurance.
- kcanini 9y ago
  I imagine that when reporting it to the police/insurance agency, many (most?) drivers would omit the fact that they were driving for business purposes when the accident occurred. Not saying this is legal/ethical, just that it would come to mind in that situation.
  - s73ver 9y ago
    Driver probably would. But would the passenger?
  - stupidhn 9y ago
    So who pays for any medical costs? Not sure I'd base my livelihood on fraud.
- criddell 9y ago
  Is it different than when I give a friend with a truck $50 to help me get mulch from Home Depot to my house on a Saturday morning?
  - cdrark 9y ago
    If that friend got into an accident while driving to Home Depot for you, would you pay their insurance deductible? If they got hurt would you pay their medical bills? Would you do the same for your off the books taxi driver?

SilasX 9y ago

Assuming you mean, other than the ethical concerns? A) Who's insuring the ride? If it's not insured and the driver is at fault in a collision, there could be no one to pay for injuries to you -- Lyft/Uber certainly wouldn't owe anything for stuff booked outside their platform. Usually when they drive for a TNC, the TNC provides the insurance for the driver in the course of using the app. It's really unlikely for the driver to have a policy that covers them for non-TNC freelance rides -- especially since the big insurers haven't caught up to the realities of this use case and seriously overprice them. (AIUI, they just have policies that assume you drive full time commercially, nothing that works on a per mile basis -- and even if they do have such policies, that would defeat most of the purpose of cutting out middlemen, as there would now be a written record of the transaction that can't be hidden on taxes.) B) In order to get enough information to re-book out-of-band you'd have to accept it and then cancel. Do that a lot and it will be grounds for being kicked off the platform. (The same applies to the people in the anecdotes in the sibling comments.)

jngreenlee 9y ago
This is a great point: Who's insuring the ride? [..] Lyft/Uber certainly wouldn't owe anything for stuff booked outside their platform. Most drivers have a "Rideshare Rider" from their auto insurance provider...but not sure if it extends to off-service rides
- stupidhn 9y ago
  Your standard auto insurance is not going to cover using your car as a taxi. It will have to be disclosed, and you will pay for it. The calculus is simple: liabltiy has increased and you have responsibility due to the commercial transaction.
sanderjd 9y ago
Out of curiosity, what are the ethical concerns? The arrangement is not being made by the middleman company. I don't see how it is unethical to not pay them for something they did not do. Point (B) doesn't make sense to me. Why do you have to accept and then cancel? You just get the driver's phone number and talk to them directly. In fact, if this is not common already, I think it undermines the contention of these companies that they are merely a service being provided to independent contractors. If drivers are independent contractors, of course they should be trying to build their own brand and dedicated clientele. Point (A) is a good one, though. Sounds like there should be independent insurance providers that these independent contractors can use. If you're instead saying that drivers are employees of these companies, then maybe you're right about all the rest of it. But you can't have it both ways!

spraak 9y ago

In Thailand I used GrabTaxi and once I found a driver whom I got along with, I got their personal number and would do this very thing. It worked well for them and me! But then Grab missed out :/