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There is much better option in some countries if you want to change some law or government policy. For example, in the UK any British citizen or UK resident can
by dgranda 9y ago
There is much better option in some countries if you want to change some law or government policy. For example, in the UK any British citizen or UK resident can create an online petition to be discussed in UK Parliament [1].
If a petition gets 10,000 signatures, the government will respond.
If a petition gets 100,000 signatures, it will be considered for debate in Parliament.
And source code is available on GitHub [2]
[1] https://petition.parliament.uk/ https://petition.parliament.uk/
[2] https://github.com/alphagov/e-petitions https://github.com/alphagov/e-petitions
- bshimmin 9y agoUnfortunately, whether or not the petition is debated in Parliament, it won't actually change the law or government policy, because the government doesn't in the slightest bit care about the petitions.
- tonyedgecombe 9y agoI'm not sure that is totally true, it would be silly to ignore something that got a strong response.
- Angostura 9y agoTrump's still been invited on a state visit.
- pc86 9y agoAre people in the UK really signing a petition that amounts to "don't invite the President of the United States to the UK on an official visit"?
- zastrowm 9y agoI wondered the same, so I looked it up: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/171928 https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/171928
- BillinghamJ 9y agoYes, and when 3% of the entire country's population has gone out of their way to vote for that, it's worth serious consideration. It's often said that one letter written and sent is representative of the opinion of 1,000 people. Perhaps with online petitions it's more like 5.
- tonyedgecombe 9y agoHe was invited before any petition.
- Angostura 9y agoThe petition was to convert it to a regular foreign visit, rather than a State Visit where he meets the Queen, etc.
- bshimmin 9y agoThey've debated something like a dozen petitions in Parliament. I'm not aware of anything meaningful having happened as a result.
- DanBC 9y agoLike the million people marching against the Iraq war in london 2003?
- usefulcat 9y agoMarching in the streets sends a much stronger message per person than does signing an online petition.
- DanBC 9y agoIt had fuck all effect though.
- tonyedgecombe 9y agoWe don't really know what the impact is further down the line, the government has lost a vote over going to war since.
- felipellrocha 9y agoPoliticians are kings of being silly, then...
- skbohra123 9y agoNot a very good idea to believe a government controlled platform for something like this.
- raleighm 9y agoNot sure for-profit is appropriate either though (even if it's a b-corp, as Change.org is).
- __jal 9y agoWhat are your reservations about a B-corp? Nonprofit legal status is hardly a guarantee of anything about corporate behaviour, aside from what paperwork they fill out. To be clear, I'm actually curious about it, especially because Bs are becoming mildly trendy, and I don't know that much about them.
- raleighm 9y agoI've got nothing against b-corps. In fact, I think they should be the default corporate form rather than one you need to opt into with specific language in the articles of incorporation (as in Delaware). But b-corps are still owned by investors. They are legally entitled to take into account considerations other than maximizing shareholder return. Whether they do or not is a separate matter; they are not obligated (although this can depend on state and type of entity, I believe). They receive funding as investments (with expectation of returns) rather than donations. Again, no problem with that as such. But if my choice is between government operated petition site and a petition site accountable to private investors (even if a b-corp), I wouldn't reflexively favor the latter.
- dpeck 9y agocan't tell if this is in jest, is "considered for debate" really a better option for bringing about change? At the end of the day influence (and by proxy money since it buys influence) is pretty much all that matters in changing policy.
- dgranda 9y agoI am sure it is much more effective (and expensive) to lobby, but regular citizens can't afford it. There is a long way to go and "considered for debate" is just the first step. Change.org only guarantees that all data you have provided (including what you are not aware of) will be sold to highest bidder.
- JumpCrisscross 9y agoThe point of physical petitions is they're hard. Showing a politician a few thousand names, with verified voter-registration statuses, who wrote out their addresses, and maybe copied a single sentence expressing their support for your cause, is much stronger than a million people who clicked an Internet button. The former can be organized to the politicians benefit (or against him, to his detriment). The latter probably can't.
- dpeck 9y agoI would tend to take the cynical view that the point of petitions in general is that it lets people feel like they're making making their voice heard and acting as a pressure relief valve of sorts for all but the most serious of grievances. Most protests today fulfill the same purpose.
- JumpCrisscross 9y agoHave you been involved in a legislative process? (I haven't, directly, at the federal level.) At the local and state levels, hard petitions are huge. (In some jurisdictions, they're required to get on the ballot.) Protests are meaningful inasmuch as they are willing to show up, time and again. Why? Off-season elections, which most of these politicos must win to keep office, are not games for numbers. They're games to motivate people to inconvenience themselves by voting. Remember why politicians like PAC and campaign contributions. They spend that money on turning out voters. If you can turn out a bloc of potential voters, or people whom you can reasonably claim are upset enough to vote against them, you'll catch attention. The active minority wins against the disinterested majority. Internet petitions represent the latter; hard petitions and protests high in repeat attendance demonstrate the former.
- rmc 9y agoThe European Union has a similar. A European Citizens Initiative has been available since the 2007 Treaty of Lisbon. If 1 million EU citizens (~0.2% of the population) sign it, the European Commission must respond, maybe with legislation. It hasn't been used much though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Citizens%27_Initiative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Citizens%27_Initiativ...
- vit05 9y agoIn Brazil too[0]. The numbers are different, but if a petition reaches a certain number of signatures our Congress has to lead to the plenary. You could use the official government website for that. Recently we had a Law called 10 mediated against the corruption[1] that followed this script. Unfortunately, our Congress has greatly changed the proposal. I participated actively in this campaign and I am participating in some other proposals that are being built. What I have discovered is that getting in touch with a congressman so that he or she will sponsor the proposal and defend it in its originality is much faster and with a higher success rate. Unfortunately, we do not yet have a possibility to prevent congressmen from altering the public petition and this allows they to transform something positive into something very bad. [0]https://www12.senado.leg.br/ecidadania/principalmateria https://www12.senado.leg.br/ecidadania/principalmateria (in portuguese) [1]http://www.dezmedidas.mpf.mp.br/campanha/documentos http://www.dezmedidas.mpf.mp.br/campanha/documentos (in portuguese)
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Angostura 9y agoI don't think there is a single instance of a petition leading to legislation, though.
- skynode 9y agoI fail to see how the UK's policy is better. For starters, its a government policy which can be revoked at will. Change.org is a for-profit entity whose objectives are clear and cuts across government and private enterprise.
- dragonwriter 9y ago> Change.org is a for-profit entity Wikipedia claims that in summary information, but the text contradicts it; I suspect the people saying that (including Wikipedia) are making the error of failing to recognize that "for-profit", "not-for-profit", and "nonprofit" are three different categories (not two, with the last two being aliases), and that you can't distinguish between the first and second categories by just looking at the legal formalities that identify the third category.
- BillinghamJ 9y agoIt's not actually. It's decided by parliament, which is not the same as the government. It specifically exists in order to challenge the government.
- lomnakkus 9y agoI can't recall any instance where this has had any remotely noticeable effect. Can you name an instance? EDIT#1: Just to be absolutely clear: This is an incredibly transparent distraction ploy. There's no actual intention of acting on any of this. EDIT#2: See also the recent FCC "public consultation" on Net Neutrality.
- amoorthy 9y ago(Related to my company) I've spoken with a half dozen government officials in the US and they all said they do not consider petitions in policy making. The biggest problem they have is not knowing easily what fraction of the signers are in their constituency. Beyond this, they see petitions as a marketing ploy by organized groups and hence further discount it. Btw, interesting article on change.org's challenges with business model: https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2017/05/change-dot-ugh-the-popular-petition-site-profits-o.html https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2017/05/change-dot-ug...
- Amygaz 9y agoI can concur. In the US, representatives care about 1st, how many people will vote for them in the next election, and 2nd who is paying. That's the extend of their moral and logical debate (if any).
- snuoaert 9y agoThat's a little disingenuous of them. Every petition I've ever seen in the US required not only a name but an address as well, specifically for this purpose.
- amoorthy 9y agoThe challenge for the official is to sort the signatures easily to identify their constituents. Not so easy without zip+4 data (5-digit zip not always accurate on election districts).
- BillinghamJ 9y agoThe UK's petition system (https://petition.parliament.uk https://petition.parliament.uk) specifically collects postcode information to group votes by constituency, and even provides a handy heat map showing % of constituents who voted.
- alasdair_ 9y agoThe US has something similar. The issue is that (even in the UK) the response can be "no" and the consideration can also be "no".
- greeneggs 9y agoThe US used to have something similar. The site still exists, but under Trump the petitions are no longer reviewed. You can't take democracy for granted.