9 ms·

So Mozilla lost Firefox OS. And their browser share is smaller then Chrome, and then it was, but still top tier and winning from M$. I'm much less pessimistic.

by cies 9y ago

So Mozilla lost Firefox OS. And their browser share is smaller then Chrome, and then it was, but still top tier and winning from M$. I'm much less pessimistic. Besides a cross platform and extensible browser we see also the following coming out of Mozilla: * Rust, a modern low-level programming language with cutting edge "safety" build in at zero runt time cost, luring many system programmers. * Servo, tomorrow browser, from scratch, in Rust. * Thunderbird, x-platform desktop email client (interesting for those not trusting the cloud enough). * MDN, everything MSDN and w3school wish they could be. :) A lot with revolve around privacy and safety in the future, a space that Mozilla is very well positioned to florish in. Chrome is a good product. But I prefer Firefox. And seeing what is becoming of Servo I will soon start using that. Form me Firefox has won, and is not at all losing. I dont need the "most popular" browser, I need the most secure one. And when I see what programming languages Google came up with... (Seriously? Is Go the best money can buy?) Then I think Rust shows single handedly that Mozilla beats Google in that arena as well.

bobajeff 9y ago
If they run out of funding many of those great things they are working on won't get the resources they need. The amount of funding they get is in direct correlation to how much market share they have in Firefox at the time they negotiate a search deal with one of the big search sites.
StevePerkins 9y ago
I understand that people who like rust REALLY like Rust, but you do realize that your examples of a purpose for existence consist of: 1. A programming language, that hasn't yet shown "escape velocity" to go beyond D and other would-be-C++-successors in traction. 2. The only major application of that language... a pre-alpha browser engine, which may or may not eventually replace the engine in a browser that is seriously declining in market share with no reversal in sight. 3. A desktop email client, from which Mozilla has repeatedly made clear their intentions to divest and move on. 4. A JavaScript and HTML reference manual. Mozilla is an organization with over $400 million in annual revenue. Where that money is going baffles me.
- vatotemking 9y ago
  Made an almost similar comment to yours but you articulated it much better. Mozilla needs to know the steps they need to do to reach their goal. And their goal of privacy and safety is a bit too broad. Its like they are going in different directions at the same time losing money along the way.
- sgift 9y ago
  I am curious: What's your definition of a major application? I've heard of various "bigger" projects written in Rust (a finished game was posted here recently) and just wanted to know if that counts?
- pcwalton 9y ago
  > 2. The only major application of that language... a pre-alpha browser engine, which may or may not eventually replace the engine in a browser that is seriously declining in market share with no reversal in sight. You may be interested in https://www.rust-lang.org/en-US/friends.html https://www.rust-lang.org/en-US/friends.html.
- Vinnl 9y ago
  > a pre-alpha browser engine, which may or may not eventually replace the engine in a browser that is seriously declining in market share with no reversal in sight. There are other promising applications. For example, it could be used for web technologies-based applications (e.g. hybrid mobile apps, Electron, ...).
- pjc50 9y ago
  > Mozilla is an organization with over $400 million in annual revenue. Where that money is going baffles me. This is astonishing. Anyone looked at their accounts?
  - froydnj 9y ago
    All sorts of people do, since Mozilla's financials are publicly available. See the audited statement at the end of https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/annualreport/2015/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/annualreport/2015/
vatotemking 9y ago
I know that HN loves Rust and at the risk of being burned at the stakes, i'd say Rust is overrated. Lets get real, it doesn't have that many users, its not even on top of TIOBE. If you are going to start a career in Rust, good luck finding any jobs. I saw maybe one or 2 in the past, and it requires knowledge of C/C++ anyways. You might say, "its new language give it a break" but I bet Kotlin will overtake it by the end of 2017. There is currently no incentive in learning it other than as a hobby language. And im saying this as someone who dived into Rust, drank the coolaid, not an outsider. Servo is an "experimental" browser engine. While Chromium is cranking out features, servo is yet to reach version 1.0. Thunderbird - was "discontinued" by Mozilla MDN is a mess. The topics are all over the place and its hard to navigate. php.net docs is much more organized. You can criticize Go but it has a more thriving ecosystem than Rust. As much I'd like them to succeed, I dont think Mozilla is doing very good right now. They churn out technologically good products, but business wise, they dont know what they're doing. And without money, they wont be able to fight the big companies like Google, MS, FB.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  > You can criticize Go but it has a more thriving ecosystem than Rust. I think Go has already become unavoidable for those working in cloud like environments, thanks to Docker and Kubernetes. Anyone working on those areas needs a working knowledge of Go, even he/she dislikes the language.
- pcwalton 9y ago
  > Servo is an "experimental" browser engine. While Chromium is cranking out features, servo is yet to reach version 1.0. This would be a more convincing point if any of memory safety, parallel styling, parallel layout, retained mode rendering as suggested by the GPU vendors, and so forth were on Chromium's roadmap.
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    I agree with you, but in the end it is a Beta vs VHS uphill battle.
  - vatotemking 9y ago
pjmlp 9y ago
> Rust, a modern low-level programming language with cutting edge "safety" build in at zero runt time cost, luring many system programmers. I love Rust, and advocate it among other memory safe systems programming languages, but right now it still has an uphill battle against Swift, C++17 and .NET Native, on the desktop and mobile OSes. Adoption is growing slowly, even Microsoft has recently added a Rust library to VS Code, but it will take years to become a major systems language.
baby 9y ago
Let's not forget that Firefox also has Tree Style Tabs, which for power users is the good reason not to use Chrome and use Firefox instead.
- jerrre 9y ago
  This is the main reason I haven't switched
- drdaeman 9y ago
  Better say "had". They'll disappear in some months, unless you stick with ESR (which has expiry date, AFAIK in 2018Q2)
  - konart 9y ago
    I'm pretty sure there will an alternative. Panels API should allow building a replacement.
  - lopan 9y ago
    Extensions for tree style and vertical tabs: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tree-style-tab/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tree-style-ta... https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/vertical-tabs-simplified/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/vertical-tabs...
  - creatonez 9y ago
    Have you seen Mozilla's "test pilot" collection of addons? They're experimenting with adding vertical tabs into Firefox: https://testpilot.firefox.com/experiments/tab-center/ https://testpilot.firefox.com/experiments/tab-center/ It seems Mozilla is very much aware of what will disappear when WebExtensions becomes the only extension API, and what will need to happen to replace it.
    - j605 9y ago
      That looks very similar what I saw in vivado. Trying it out now, thanks!
kenoph 9y ago
I'm with you on everything, but atm the most secure browser is Chrome. Of course I mean "secure" as in "difficult to exploit".
- ocdtrekkie 9y ago
  Almost every Chrome install I see on laypeople's PCs contains malicious extensions (officially hosted on the Chrome Web Store!) which have permission to see and modify all page content and collect data and/or inject ads. Google may focus on specific types of exploits, but they let everyone bad just walk right in the front door.
  - Houshalter 9y ago
    They cracked down on this awhile ago and removed the ability to sideload extensions. Firefox is just as vulnerable to that attack. It's just a less common browser so why bother. In any case it's not the browser makers' responsibility. If you run malicious code on your computer, it can do way worse things than put toolbars on your browser.
    - ocdtrekkie 9y ago
      It sounds like you do not understand. This is not a problem with sideloading. This is a problem with the Chrome Web Store itself having hundreds or thousands of malicious extensions (Google refuses to either implement an approval process for extensions or police reported malicious extensions in an expedient manner), and a browser that is easily exploitable to trick people into installing them. You can hit a single accidental click on a malicious Google ad (yes, there are many), and end up with a voice telling you to click the "Install Extension" button to regain control of your browser, which alternates between a JavaScript alert popup message and the extension installation prompt to make it hard to get out of any other way (it's doable, if you're not a layperson). Approving it installs an extension which can inject ads into web pages and collect data on everything you visit and anything you type into Chrome. Sure, it's removable, but most of the victims of this behavior don't even know what Chrome extensions are, much less how to remove them. This is absolutely something Google has failed to address, and it's really not accurate to refer to Chrome as "the most secure browser" while this is so rampant and unhandled.
akerro 9y ago
Rust, Servo and Thunderbird no longer belong to Mozilla.
nyolfen 9y ago
> I dont need the "most popular" browser, I need the most secure one. then you really ought to be using chrome

by cies 9y ago

bobajeff 9y ago

If they run out of funding many of those great things they are working on won't get the resources they need. The amount of funding they get is in direct correlation to how much market share they have in Firefox at the time they negotiate a search deal with one of the big search sites.

StevePerkins 9y ago

I understand that people who like rust REALLY like Rust, but you do realize that your examples of a purpose for existence consist of: 1. A programming language, that hasn't yet shown "escape velocity" to go beyond D and other would-be-C++-successors in traction. 2. The only major application of that language... a pre-alpha browser engine, which may or may not eventually replace the engine in a browser that is seriously declining in market share with no reversal in sight. 3. A desktop email client, from which Mozilla has repeatedly made clear their intentions to divest and move on. 4. A JavaScript and HTML reference manual. Mozilla is an organization with over $400 million in annual revenue. Where that money is going baffles me.

vatotemking 9y ago
Made an almost similar comment to yours but you articulated it much better. Mozilla needs to know the steps they need to do to reach their goal. And their goal of privacy and safety is a bit too broad. Its like they are going in different directions at the same time losing money along the way.
sgift 9y ago
I am curious: What's your definition of a major application? I've heard of various "bigger" projects written in Rust (a finished game was posted here recently) and just wanted to know if that counts?
pcwalton 9y ago
> 2. The only major application of that language... a pre-alpha browser engine, which may or may not eventually replace the engine in a browser that is seriously declining in market share with no reversal in sight. You may be interested in https://www.rust-lang.org/en-US/friends.html https://www.rust-lang.org/en-US/friends.html.
Vinnl 9y ago
> a pre-alpha browser engine, which may or may not eventually replace the engine in a browser that is seriously declining in market share with no reversal in sight. There are other promising applications. For example, it could be used for web technologies-based applications (e.g. hybrid mobile apps, Electron, ...).
pjc50 9y ago
> Mozilla is an organization with over $400 million in annual revenue. Where that money is going baffles me. This is astonishing. Anyone looked at their accounts?
- froydnj 9y ago
  All sorts of people do, since Mozilla's financials are publicly available. See the audited statement at the end of https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/annualreport/2015/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/annualreport/2015/

vatotemking 9y ago

I know that HN loves Rust and at the risk of being burned at the stakes, i'd say Rust is overrated. Lets get real, it doesn't have that many users, its not even on top of TIOBE. If you are going to start a career in Rust, good luck finding any jobs. I saw maybe one or 2 in the past, and it requires knowledge of C/C++ anyways. You might say, "its new language give it a break" but I bet Kotlin will overtake it by the end of 2017. There is currently no incentive in learning it other than as a hobby language. And im saying this as someone who dived into Rust, drank the coolaid, not an outsider. Servo is an "experimental" browser engine. While Chromium is cranking out features, servo is yet to reach version 1.0. Thunderbird - was "discontinued" by Mozilla MDN is a mess. The topics are all over the place and its hard to navigate. php.net docs is much more organized. You can criticize Go but it has a more thriving ecosystem than Rust. As much I'd like them to succeed, I dont think Mozilla is doing very good right now. They churn out technologically good products, but business wise, they dont know what they're doing. And without money, they wont be able to fight the big companies like Google, MS, FB.

pjmlp 9y ago
> You can criticize Go but it has a more thriving ecosystem than Rust. I think Go has already become unavoidable for those working in cloud like environments, thanks to Docker and Kubernetes. Anyone working on those areas needs a working knowledge of Go, even he/she dislikes the language.
pcwalton 9y ago
> Servo is an "experimental" browser engine. While Chromium is cranking out features, servo is yet to reach version 1.0. This would be a more convincing point if any of memory safety, parallel styling, parallel layout, retained mode rendering as suggested by the GPU vendors, and so forth were on Chromium's roadmap.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  I agree with you, but in the end it is a Beta vs VHS uphill battle.
- vatotemking 9y ago

pjmlp 9y ago

> Rust, a modern low-level programming language with cutting edge "safety" build in at zero runt time cost, luring many system programmers. I love Rust, and advocate it among other memory safe systems programming languages, but right now it still has an uphill battle against Swift, C++17 and .NET Native, on the desktop and mobile OSes. Adoption is growing slowly, even Microsoft has recently added a Rust library to VS Code, but it will take years to become a major systems language.

baby 9y ago

Let's not forget that Firefox also has Tree Style Tabs, which for power users is the good reason not to use Chrome and use Firefox instead.

jerrre 9y ago
This is the main reason I haven't switched
drdaeman 9y ago
Better say "had". They'll disappear in some months, unless you stick with ESR (which has expiry date, AFAIK in 2018Q2)
- konart 9y ago
  I'm pretty sure there will an alternative. Panels API should allow building a replacement.
- lopan 9y ago
  Extensions for tree style and vertical tabs: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tree-style-tab/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tree-style-ta... https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/vertical-tabs-simplified/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/vertical-tabs...
- creatonez 9y ago
  Have you seen Mozilla's "test pilot" collection of addons? They're experimenting with adding vertical tabs into Firefox: https://testpilot.firefox.com/experiments/tab-center/ https://testpilot.firefox.com/experiments/tab-center/ It seems Mozilla is very much aware of what will disappear when WebExtensions becomes the only extension API, and what will need to happen to replace it.
  - j605 9y ago
    That looks very similar what I saw in vivado. Trying it out now, thanks!

kenoph 9y ago

I'm with you on everything, but atm the most secure browser is Chrome. Of course I mean "secure" as in "difficult to exploit".

ocdtrekkie 9y ago
Almost every Chrome install I see on laypeople's PCs contains malicious extensions (officially hosted on the Chrome Web Store!) which have permission to see and modify all page content and collect data and/or inject ads. Google may focus on specific types of exploits, but they let everyone bad just walk right in the front door.
- Houshalter 9y ago
  They cracked down on this awhile ago and removed the ability to sideload extensions. Firefox is just as vulnerable to that attack. It's just a less common browser so why bother. In any case it's not the browser makers' responsibility. If you run malicious code on your computer, it can do way worse things than put toolbars on your browser.
  - ocdtrekkie 9y ago
    It sounds like you do not understand. This is not a problem with sideloading. This is a problem with the Chrome Web Store itself having hundreds or thousands of malicious extensions (Google refuses to either implement an approval process for extensions or police reported malicious extensions in an expedient manner), and a browser that is easily exploitable to trick people into installing them. You can hit a single accidental click on a malicious Google ad (yes, there are many), and end up with a voice telling you to click the "Install Extension" button to regain control of your browser, which alternates between a JavaScript alert popup message and the extension installation prompt to make it hard to get out of any other way (it's doable, if you're not a layperson). Approving it installs an extension which can inject ads into web pages and collect data on everything you visit and anything you type into Chrome. Sure, it's removable, but most of the victims of this behavior don't even know what Chrome extensions are, much less how to remove them. This is absolutely something Google has failed to address, and it's really not accurate to refer to Chrome as "the most secure browser" while this is so rampant and unhandled.

akerro 9y ago

Rust, Servo and Thunderbird no longer belong to Mozilla.

nyolfen 9y ago

> I dont need the "most popular" browser, I need the most secure one. then you really ought to be using chrome