4 ms·

Very true! It's hard to argue with another person's feelings or needs though. I can always need a bit of resting (who doesn't?), so it's not even a lie if I say

by manmal 9y ago

Very true! It's hard to argue with another person's feelings or needs though. I can always need a bit of resting (who doesn't?), so it's not even a lie if I say "Sorry I feel a bit worn out, so I can't take this right now. I have this and that task to do later and I will have to give my everything to do it properly. I hope you find a solution for your problem." The white lie would be "Sorry my foot hurts, I had an accident yesterday, so I cannot help you. I really wish I could, but you know..." Regarding your addition about white lies - I personally very seldomly lie in a detectable way, because I am very embarrassed if the other one finds out. You are certainly correct that white lies are easily forgiven, but IMO the perception of a "white liar" changes if you find out about the lie - I look at them as cowards, because they are too weak to just say no - does that make sense?

hammock 9y ago
Both of those sound terrible and regardless of your feelings I might tag you as unreliable. Is there a third way?
- manmal 9y ago
  Ha, that's one of the reasons why I often do what people ask of me instead of saying "no". It might be a problem of my own making - if I would not mark other people as unreliable just for declining, maybe I would not be afraid of other people thinking the same of me. What's the effect of you marking me as unreliable? Will you stop considering me for certain tasks, or will you cease any relationship with me?
- Swizec 9y ago
  Unreliable is great! I don't want to be relied upon for things I don't want to do. Why would I want to come off as reliable for things I don't want to be doing in the first place? That's a great way to get to do even more of the things you don't want to do. Sounds terrible. Align your interests with mine, then we can talk about reliable. In the words of one Richard Feynman : http://www.deliberate.rest/?p=685 http://www.deliberate.rest/?p=685 > So I have invented another myth for myself—that I’m irresponsible. I tell everybody, I don’t do anything. If anybody asks me to be on a committee to take care of admissions, no, I’m irresponsible, I don’t give a damn about the students—of course I give a damn about the students but I know that somebody else’ll do it—and I take the view, “Let George do it,” a view which you’re not supposed to take, okay, because that’s not right to do, but I do that because I like to do physics and I want to see if I can still do it, and so I’m selfish, okay? I want to do my physics. 90% of the time, being "reliable" goes against my best interests in terms of career and goals. My value is that I can hunker down and make stuff. My value is not "tasks".
  - lomnakkus 9y ago
    > Unreliable is great! Anecdote: It only goes so far. There are quite a lot of people who will be quite pissed off with you (passively) if you're unreliable. I mean, friends will tolerate it, but let me tell you, as someone who's quite "reliable" (punctual, do what I promise, etc.) it's quite stressful to have to rely on someone who isn't. So stressful, in fact, that I wouldn't actually interact very much with this particular person I'm thinking of right now if I wasn't forced to (via circumstances beyond my control). > [Snip Feynman] anecdote. Feynman could get away with a lot of shit that almost nobody else would have done because he was a genius (and was recognized as such by his contemporaries). Are you at "Feynman"-level? > 90% of the time, being "reliable" goes against my best interests in terms of career and goals. ^ I don't see what the above... > My value is that I can hunker down and make stuff. My value is not "tasks". ... has to do with this. Can you explain?
    - erkkie 9y ago
      There's a difference in actually being unreliable (which I'm sure Feynman wasn't) vs projecting the negative of "I will help everyone every time". It boils down to finding enough courage to focus on your priorities in life and not feeling guilty about it. Respect yourself (your time) and people will respect you.
      - lomnakkus 9y ago
        True, maybe we're just getting bogged down in wording.
    - Swizec 9y ago
      > ... has to do with this. Can you explain? I think we might be talking about two different kinds of unreliable. When you hire me to do a job, or I agree to build something for you, or something along those lines. When that happens, I will stop at nothing until it's done. I might be off in my estimate of how long it takes, and I might come back to you and suggest a revised plan if I think new information significantly changes the scope/cost of the project. But in the end, it will be done. You can rely on me to take things to completion. But you'd be a fool to rely on me to answer your email within 1 hour, or a day, sometimes at all. You wouldn't want to rely on me to pick up the phone when you call. And you definitely don't want to rely on me to make it to drinks or dinner exactly on time. Unless there's a very hard external deadline (like theatre tickets), I'm probably going to be a few minutes late. And you wouldn't want to rely on me to, say, buy your airplane tickets. Or random little things like that. I'll get around to doing "Random low priority task" at some point maybe. Don't rely on me for those. The whole point of this unreliableness is so that you won't even ask. If I say I'm gonna do it, I'll do it, probably riiiight before the external deadline. But I'd prefer you don't even ask. And you'll be much less stressed about it if you don't. Hell, I hire a VA for stuff like that because even I don't want to rely on myself to do such things. The lateness, that's a bad habit. It comes from losing track of time when I go into deep work mode. It happens a lot and very easily. The dropping of small things I consider low priority and/or irrelevant. Well that's just prioritization, if I'm working on something I think is important and there's no time left over for your email or message or phone call or random little task. Tough. I have a laundry list of my own little tasks that I also didn't get to. > Are you at "Feynman"-level? Probably not, but the US government does say I am an alien with exceptional ability in the arts or the sciences so there's that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- galfarragem 9y ago
  Yes and without lies: "sorry, I have already other plans." Although, it doesn't work with very close people that are expecting a concrete justification unless you want to enter in white lies' territory.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    My approach is that if close people expect some justification, I'll enter the "let's figure this out together" mode. If they're not willing to work with me in this mode, they get a clear signal that I'm not cooperating in any other way. If they complain, I point out they're showing me less respect right now than they'd show a random stranger, and we're supposed to be very close, i.e. care about each other. I try to be very consistent about it - they really can work out pretty much anything with me in a respectful and rational way, so the above is not a dismissal, it's enforcing communications protocol.
trobayhasteman 9y ago
No, neither would be even somewhat true. Of course it's open to interpretation as all language is, but "so I can't" heavily implies there was nothing more to be said about it, because everything else is apparent from context. With regard to the parent, that's a lie in the sense of obscuring ulterior motives. An apt phrase to describe this is lie by omission. In your sense, it's to weasel out, for lack of a better word, because it implies you are too worn out to even argue - without alleging you had ulterior motives.
- manmal 9y ago
  Yes just replace "I can't" with "I rather don't want to". I don't know anybody who would imply hidden ulterior motives in this case in real life, since "I can't" is not necessarily as strictly interpreted as you are trying to do.
BurningFrog 9y ago
You can tell who the white liars are. They have so many coincidences and accidents.

by manmal 9y ago

hammock 9y ago

Both of those sound terrible and regardless of your feelings I might tag you as unreliable. Is there a third way?

manmal 9y ago
Ha, that's one of the reasons why I often do what people ask of me instead of saying "no". It might be a problem of my own making - if I would not mark other people as unreliable just for declining, maybe I would not be afraid of other people thinking the same of me. What's the effect of you marking me as unreliable? Will you stop considering me for certain tasks, or will you cease any relationship with me?
Swizec 9y ago
Unreliable is great! I don't want to be relied upon for things I don't want to do. Why would I want to come off as reliable for things I don't want to be doing in the first place? That's a great way to get to do even more of the things you don't want to do. Sounds terrible. Align your interests with mine, then we can talk about reliable. In the words of one Richard Feynman : http://www.deliberate.rest/?p=685 http://www.deliberate.rest/?p=685 > So I have invented another myth for myself—that I’m irresponsible. I tell everybody, I don’t do anything. If anybody asks me to be on a committee to take care of admissions, no, I’m irresponsible, I don’t give a damn about the students—of course I give a damn about the students but I know that somebody else’ll do it—and I take the view, “Let George do it,” a view which you’re not supposed to take, okay, because that’s not right to do, but I do that because I like to do physics and I want to see if I can still do it, and so I’m selfish, okay? I want to do my physics. 90% of the time, being "reliable" goes against my best interests in terms of career and goals. My value is that I can hunker down and make stuff. My value is not "tasks".
- lomnakkus 9y ago
  > Unreliable is great! Anecdote: It only goes so far. There are quite a lot of people who will be quite pissed off with you (passively) if you're unreliable. I mean, friends will tolerate it, but let me tell you, as someone who's quite "reliable" (punctual, do what I promise, etc.) it's quite stressful to have to rely on someone who isn't. So stressful, in fact, that I wouldn't actually interact very much with this particular person I'm thinking of right now if I wasn't forced to (via circumstances beyond my control). > [Snip Feynman] anecdote. Feynman could get away with a lot of shit that almost nobody else would have done because he was a genius (and was recognized as such by his contemporaries). Are you at "Feynman"-level? > 90% of the time, being "reliable" goes against my best interests in terms of career and goals. ^ I don't see what the above... > My value is that I can hunker down and make stuff. My value is not "tasks". ... has to do with this. Can you explain?
  - erkkie 9y ago
    There's a difference in actually being unreliable (which I'm sure Feynman wasn't) vs projecting the negative of "I will help everyone every time". It boils down to finding enough courage to focus on your priorities in life and not feeling guilty about it. Respect yourself (your time) and people will respect you.
    - lomnakkus 9y ago
      True, maybe we're just getting bogged down in wording.
  - Swizec 9y ago
    > ... has to do with this. Can you explain? I think we might be talking about two different kinds of unreliable. When you hire me to do a job, or I agree to build something for you, or something along those lines. When that happens, I will stop at nothing until it's done. I might be off in my estimate of how long it takes, and I might come back to you and suggest a revised plan if I think new information significantly changes the scope/cost of the project. But in the end, it will be done. You can rely on me to take things to completion. But you'd be a fool to rely on me to answer your email within 1 hour, or a day, sometimes at all. You wouldn't want to rely on me to pick up the phone when you call. And you definitely don't want to rely on me to make it to drinks or dinner exactly on time. Unless there's a very hard external deadline (like theatre tickets), I'm probably going to be a few minutes late. And you wouldn't want to rely on me to, say, buy your airplane tickets. Or random little things like that. I'll get around to doing "Random low priority task" at some point maybe. Don't rely on me for those. The whole point of this unreliableness is so that you won't even ask. If I say I'm gonna do it, I'll do it, probably riiiight before the external deadline. But I'd prefer you don't even ask. And you'll be much less stressed about it if you don't. Hell, I hire a VA for stuff like that because even I don't want to rely on myself to do such things. The lateness, that's a bad habit. It comes from losing track of time when I go into deep work mode. It happens a lot and very easily. The dropping of small things I consider low priority and/or irrelevant. Well that's just prioritization, if I'm working on something I think is important and there's no time left over for your email or message or phone call or random little task. Tough. I have a laundry list of my own little tasks that I also didn't get to. > Are you at "Feynman"-level? Probably not, but the US government does say I am an alien with exceptional ability in the arts or the sciences so there's that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
galfarragem 9y ago
Yes and without lies: "sorry, I have already other plans." Although, it doesn't work with very close people that are expecting a concrete justification unless you want to enter in white lies' territory.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  My approach is that if close people expect some justification, I'll enter the "let's figure this out together" mode. If they're not willing to work with me in this mode, they get a clear signal that I'm not cooperating in any other way. If they complain, I point out they're showing me less respect right now than they'd show a random stranger, and we're supposed to be very close, i.e. care about each other. I try to be very consistent about it - they really can work out pretty much anything with me in a respectful and rational way, so the above is not a dismissal, it's enforcing communications protocol.

trobayhasteman 9y ago

No, neither would be even somewhat true. Of course it's open to interpretation as all language is, but "so I can't" heavily implies there was nothing more to be said about it, because everything else is apparent from context. With regard to the parent, that's a lie in the sense of obscuring ulterior motives. An apt phrase to describe this is lie by omission. In your sense, it's to weasel out, for lack of a better word, because it implies you are too worn out to even argue - without alleging you had ulterior motives.

manmal 9y ago
Yes just replace "I can't" with "I rather don't want to". I don't know anybody who would imply hidden ulterior motives in this case in real life, since "I can't" is not necessarily as strictly interpreted as you are trying to do.

BurningFrog 9y ago

You can tell who the white liars are. They have so many coincidences and accidents.