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According to what I have learned from a talk the analysing of the VW code [1] the VW cheating consisted of dispensing less AdBlue (VW proprietary DEF) than nece

by ATsch 9y ago

According to what I have learned from a talk the analysing of the VW code [1] the VW cheating consisted of dispensing less AdBlue (VW proprietary DEF) than necessary when no test was detected. That's very much at odds with what you say. I'm not claiming what you say is wrong, I'm just curious how those findings fit in with what you said. [1] "Dieselgate — a year later" https://youtu.be/SjlHtLux9vc https://youtu.be/SjlHtLux9vc

endorphone 9y ago
The controversy in the US and Canada revolved around vehicles that did not have DEF systems, in particular those with the EA189 engine. https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/company-car-tax-advice/news/which-volkswagen-audi-skoda-and-seat-models-are-fitted-with-an-ea189-engine/ https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/company-car-tax-advice/news/whi... VW has since announced a EA288 engine that deprecates the old one, and the new engine uses DEF. But sure, there is suspicion that a lot of other makers cheat to degrees. Use less DEF and it's more convenient and less costly for your users. Use the EGR less and improve fuel economy and reduce possible maintenance issues. Etc. That was not the primary problem, though.
- hx87 9y ago
  Given how cheap DEF is and how easy it is how to fill, I wonder why automakers have the perception that consumers don't like to fill them up.
  - makomk 9y ago
    As I understands it, the US restricts how often cars can require DEF top-ups so strictly that it's impossible to meet both the emissions requirements and the top-up interval requirements with a reasonably sized tank.
    - jessaustin 9y ago
      Our truck has a DEF tank that's smaller than the fuel tank, and requires refilling about a tenth as often as the fuel tank does. A nearby truck stop has a DEF dispenser, so it's no more difficult to fill than the fuel tank. Of course this truck probably emits more NOx than an emissions-compliant diesel car would, but it also burns about twice as much fuel. The real problem with DEF in passenger cars is those "luxury" manufacturers that require a special tool to fill the DEF tank, as if DEF were some rare or dangerous substance.
      - briffle 9y ago
        My pickup (Ram 2500) gets about 1200Mpg of DEF. When I am towing our large RV trailer, it drops to 800Mpg. I drove the RV from WI to OR on about $10 of DEF. I don't understand why some people think it's a big deal.....
- vonmoltke 9y ago
  > The controversy in the US and Canada revolved around vehicles that did not have DEF systems, in particular those with the EA189 engine. Where are you getting this idea from? My recently-relinquished 2014 Passat was one of the affected vehicles, and it most certainly had a DEF system.
  - endorphone 9y ago
    Where are you getting this idea from? The vast bulk of the controversy was the EA189, which did not use DEF in any form. This is literally a seconds search away.
    - vonmoltke 9y ago
      You said upthread: > However it's notable that the only VW vehicles that fail are the ones that don't use diesel exhaust fluid (DEF). That's not "the bulk", that's all. It is also demonstrably false. Your statement that I quoted previously also did not express or imply "the bulk". > The vast bulk of the controversy was the EA189, which did not use DEF in any form. This is literally a seconds search away. My Passat had an EA189 TDI and used DEF. "A seconds search" for EA189 DEF resulted in this link: http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2016/02/vw-reportedly-buying-back-some-dieselgate-cars.html http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2016/02/vw-reportedly-buy... > Vehicles equipped with updated versions of the EA189 engine that used DEF and SCR systems are considered fixable (this included my car) So, I ask again, from where did you get the idea that a) only non-DEF-equipped cars were affected and b) that no EA189 engines had a DEF system?
  - vondur 9y ago
    I thought most of the engines that were cheating were the non Urea engines. Most other companies thought it would be impossible to build a diesel engine that meets the pollution restrictions without including the DEF based anti pollution system.
    - vonmoltke 9y ago
      Most, but not all as the other poster is claiming. The proportion of DEF-affected vehicles is much higher in North America as well.
- TylerE 9y ago
  That is not entirely true. The 2015 Golf TDI was included, and it used DEF - I know because I owned one (and had it boughtback).

by ATsch 9y ago

endorphone 9y ago

The controversy in the US and Canada revolved around vehicles that did not have DEF systems, in particular those with the EA189 engine. https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/company-car-tax-advice/news/which-volkswagen-audi-skoda-and-seat-models-are-fitted-with-an-ea189-engine/ https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/company-car-tax-advice/news/whi... VW has since announced a EA288 engine that deprecates the old one, and the new engine uses DEF. But sure, there is suspicion that a lot of other makers cheat to degrees. Use less DEF and it's more convenient and less costly for your users. Use the EGR less and improve fuel economy and reduce possible maintenance issues. Etc. That was not the primary problem, though.

hx87 9y ago
Given how cheap DEF is and how easy it is how to fill, I wonder why automakers have the perception that consumers don't like to fill them up.
- makomk 9y ago
  As I understands it, the US restricts how often cars can require DEF top-ups so strictly that it's impossible to meet both the emissions requirements and the top-up interval requirements with a reasonably sized tank.
  - jessaustin 9y ago
    Our truck has a DEF tank that's smaller than the fuel tank, and requires refilling about a tenth as often as the fuel tank does. A nearby truck stop has a DEF dispenser, so it's no more difficult to fill than the fuel tank. Of course this truck probably emits more NOx than an emissions-compliant diesel car would, but it also burns about twice as much fuel. The real problem with DEF in passenger cars is those "luxury" manufacturers that require a special tool to fill the DEF tank, as if DEF were some rare or dangerous substance.
    - briffle 9y ago
      My pickup (Ram 2500) gets about 1200Mpg of DEF. When I am towing our large RV trailer, it drops to 800Mpg. I drove the RV from WI to OR on about $10 of DEF. I don't understand why some people think it's a big deal.....
vonmoltke 9y ago
> The controversy in the US and Canada revolved around vehicles that did not have DEF systems, in particular those with the EA189 engine. Where are you getting this idea from? My recently-relinquished 2014 Passat was one of the affected vehicles, and it most certainly had a DEF system.
- endorphone 9y ago
  Where are you getting this idea from? The vast bulk of the controversy was the EA189, which did not use DEF in any form. This is literally a seconds search away.
  - vonmoltke 9y ago
    You said upthread: > However it's notable that the only VW vehicles that fail are the ones that don't use diesel exhaust fluid (DEF). That's not "the bulk", that's all. It is also demonstrably false. Your statement that I quoted previously also did not express or imply "the bulk". > The vast bulk of the controversy was the EA189, which did not use DEF in any form. This is literally a seconds search away. My Passat had an EA189 TDI and used DEF. "A seconds search" for EA189 DEF resulted in this link: http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2016/02/vw-reportedly-buying-back-some-dieselgate-cars.html http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2016/02/vw-reportedly-buy... > Vehicles equipped with updated versions of the EA189 engine that used DEF and SCR systems are considered fixable (this included my car) So, I ask again, from where did you get the idea that a) only non-DEF-equipped cars were affected and b) that no EA189 engines had a DEF system?
- vondur 9y ago
  I thought most of the engines that were cheating were the non Urea engines. Most other companies thought it would be impossible to build a diesel engine that meets the pollution restrictions without including the DEF based anti pollution system.
  - vonmoltke 9y ago
    Most, but not all as the other poster is claiming. The proportion of DEF-affected vehicles is much higher in North America as well.
TylerE 9y ago
That is not entirely true. The 2015 Golf TDI was included, and it used DEF - I know because I owned one (and had it boughtback).