4 ms·

If Volkswagen couldn't figure out how to meet US emission standards for diesel without cheating VW could meet the emissions standards, and went through the act

If Volkswagen couldn't figure out how to meet US emission standards for diesel without cheating VW could meet the emissions standards, and went through the actual testing and passed. It had such an effect on either fuel economy or long term reliability however that they cheat on the road. However it's notable that the only VW vehicles that fail are the ones that don't use diesel exhaust fluid (DEF). This is something that you refill periodically and it's sprayed into the exhaust to reduce a lot of the harmful exhaust. That system costs a couple of thousand dollars, so they eliminated it and claimed that they found a way around it. The GM trucks, in contrast, have the DEF systems, just like all of the Mercedes and higher end VW diesel cars do. Too many commentators are taking the word of a legal firm that got some easy prey and now hopes there's blood in the water.

ATsch 9y ago
According to what I have learned from a talk the analysing of the VW code [1] the VW cheating consisted of dispensing less AdBlue (VW proprietary DEF) than necessary when no test was detected. That's very much at odds with what you say. I'm not claiming what you say is wrong, I'm just curious how those findings fit in with what you said. [1] "Dieselgate — a year later" https://youtu.be/SjlHtLux9vc https://youtu.be/SjlHtLux9vc
- endorphone 9y ago
  The controversy in the US and Canada revolved around vehicles that did not have DEF systems, in particular those with the EA189 engine. https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/company-car-tax-advice/news/which-volkswagen-audi-skoda-and-seat-models-are-fitted-with-an-ea189-engine/ https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/company-car-tax-advice/news/whi... VW has since announced a EA288 engine that deprecates the old one, and the new engine uses DEF. But sure, there is suspicion that a lot of other makers cheat to degrees. Use less DEF and it's more convenient and less costly for your users. Use the EGR less and improve fuel economy and reduce possible maintenance issues. Etc. That was not the primary problem, though.
  - hx87 9y ago
    Given how cheap DEF is and how easy it is how to fill, I wonder why automakers have the perception that consumers don't like to fill them up.
    - makomk 9y ago
      As I understands it, the US restricts how often cars can require DEF top-ups so strictly that it's impossible to meet both the emissions requirements and the top-up interval requirements with a reasonably sized tank.
      - jessaustin 9y ago
        Our truck has a DEF tank that's smaller than the fuel tank, and requires refilling about a tenth as often as the fuel tank does. A nearby truck stop has a DEF dispenser, so it's no more difficult to fill than the fuel tank. Of course this truck probably emits more NOx than an emissions-compliant diesel car would, but it also burns about twice as much fuel. The real problem with DEF in passenger cars is those "luxury" manufacturers that require a special tool to fill the DEF tank, as if DEF were some rare or dangerous substance.
        briffle 9y ago
        My pickup (Ram 2500) gets about 1200Mpg of DEF. When I am towing our large RV trailer, it drops to 800Mpg. I drove the RV from WI to OR on about $10 of DEF. I don't understand why some people think it's a big deal.....
  - vonmoltke 9y ago
    > The controversy in the US and Canada revolved around vehicles that did not have DEF systems, in particular those with the EA189 engine. Where are you getting this idea from? My recently-relinquished 2014 Passat was one of the affected vehicles, and it most certainly had a DEF system.
    - 9y ago

ATsch 9y ago

According to what I have learned from a talk the analysing of the VW code [1] the VW cheating consisted of dispensing less AdBlue (VW proprietary DEF) than necessary when no test was detected. That's very much at odds with what you say. I'm not claiming what you say is wrong, I'm just curious how those findings fit in with what you said. [1] "Dieselgate — a year later" https://youtu.be/SjlHtLux9vc https://youtu.be/SjlHtLux9vc

endorphone 9y ago
The controversy in the US and Canada revolved around vehicles that did not have DEF systems, in particular those with the EA189 engine. https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/company-car-tax-advice/news/which-volkswagen-audi-skoda-and-seat-models-are-fitted-with-an-ea189-engine/ https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/company-car-tax-advice/news/whi... VW has since announced a EA288 engine that deprecates the old one, and the new engine uses DEF. But sure, there is suspicion that a lot of other makers cheat to degrees. Use less DEF and it's more convenient and less costly for your users. Use the EGR less and improve fuel economy and reduce possible maintenance issues. Etc. That was not the primary problem, though.
- hx87 9y ago
  Given how cheap DEF is and how easy it is how to fill, I wonder why automakers have the perception that consumers don't like to fill them up.
  - makomk 9y ago
    As I understands it, the US restricts how often cars can require DEF top-ups so strictly that it's impossible to meet both the emissions requirements and the top-up interval requirements with a reasonably sized tank.
    - jessaustin 9y ago
      Our truck has a DEF tank that's smaller than the fuel tank, and requires refilling about a tenth as often as the fuel tank does. A nearby truck stop has a DEF dispenser, so it's no more difficult to fill than the fuel tank. Of course this truck probably emits more NOx than an emissions-compliant diesel car would, but it also burns about twice as much fuel. The real problem with DEF in passenger cars is those "luxury" manufacturers that require a special tool to fill the DEF tank, as if DEF were some rare or dangerous substance.
      - briffle 9y ago
        My pickup (Ram 2500) gets about 1200Mpg of DEF. When I am towing our large RV trailer, it drops to 800Mpg. I drove the RV from WI to OR on about $10 of DEF. I don't understand why some people think it's a big deal.....
- vonmoltke 9y ago
  > The controversy in the US and Canada revolved around vehicles that did not have DEF systems, in particular those with the EA189 engine. Where are you getting this idea from? My recently-relinquished 2014 Passat was one of the affected vehicles, and it most certainly had a DEF system.
  - 9y ago