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I do believe that it is very unusual for an HR investigation to be a fair process. HR is primarily tasked with protecting the company from legal liability first

I do believe that it is very unusual for an HR investigation to be a fair process. HR is primarily tasked with protecting the company from legal liability first, and with resolving employee disputes second, and with finding out the truth as a distant third (so distant as to be not-on-the-map). I'm not an absolutist but I do have a high standard of ethics when it comes to disciplinary action that can affect a person's livelihood and reputation (and thus future employment prospects). There is an unfortunate trend in our society right now for the justice of the mob. The loudest and most aggrieved mob tends to exert its "authority" (as such, it's illegitimate but is authority none the less) against those who stand accused of a moral transgression. This has created the atmosphere of a moral panic which leads to numerous false accusations. It's a troubling circumstance. Given the troubling circumstances we find ourselves in I find it important to advocate for higher standards of discourse, ethics, and institutional conduct because the natural tendency otherwise becomes a race to the bottom combined with CYA behavior. I don't think my advocacy for high standards of ethics in institutional authority is untenable though. I think we have reached a place where we need new solutions because HR isn't cutting it because it is not intended to nor should its mandate be expanded to cover this kind of stuff. If workplace harassment is as pervasive and problematic as it seems to be (at some companies) then a separate function for handling those issues fairly would be my preference. I'm also, however, deeply concerned that we are seeing a slip into a transgressions-driven-dialogue and the moral panics and kneejerk reactions we see all over social media, and particularly on college campuses, is beginning to become normalized in the workplace as well. That would be a tragic outcome.

joshuamorton 9y ago
>This has created the atmosphere of a moral panic which leads to numerous false accusations. It's a troubling circumstance. Why do you believe this to be the case? From my perspective, I've seen very few examples of false accusation (certainly not enough to call them "numerous") and many more examples of actions that go unpunished. Really I think that's what defines the core of our difference in view. You seem to believe that there is some great number of false accusations flying around, and further that these false accusations are causing innocent people great harm. On the other hand, I see many instances of people who should be punished for actions that are unacceptable go completely without consequence. Can you see why, from my perspective, I don't see our current situation as tragic, and indeed see it as a vast improvement over the past (which had an even greater number of unpunished actions).
- metaphorm 9y ago
  to be clear, I don't believe the moral panic has set in at private employers yet in the way it has in the university, but I see more and more steps in that direction every day and the YAG mailing list is too close for comfort, in my opinion. It's one moderator slip-up away from becoming noxious.
  - joshuamorton 9y ago
    As a very recent graduate, my same comments apply, more or less, to universities.
    - metaphorm 9y ago
      as someone with more years and perspective than a very recent graduate, I would encourage you to consider your critics more seriously and reflect on why so many people are deeply disturbed by what is going on in the academy right now.
      - joshuamorton 9y ago
        >as someone with more years and perspective Wasn't it you who said we should speak in good faith. I prefer not to be patronized. I asked you a question, which applied equally to universities as workplaces, that could be summed up as "As someone who has recently been at a university, and is currently in a workplace, I am aware of many more (perhaps orders of magnitude more) instances of abuse that goes unreported or unpunished as compared to instances of people being falsely accused of things. Given that, why should I take your concerns seriously, other than your wisdom and perspective?" You avoided it. Its difficult to take your concerns seriously when you avoid explaining them. Or in other words, I have anecdotal evidence that a lot of harassment goes unreported, and similarly anecdotal evidence that relatively few accusations are false ones, and anecdotal evidence that in many cases, being forced out or punished for perceived harassment won't actually have a lasting negative impact, and certainly won't be life-ruining. Actual data tends to agree with me. If, as I believe, for every 1 false accusation of something, 10 instances of that thing go unreported, why should I stand for focussing resources on providing additional (and perhaps unnecessary) protections to the 1, when at the same time there are 10 victims, and perhaps 10 assailants, who go without justice and punishment, respectively?

joshuamorton 9y ago

>This has created the atmosphere of a moral panic which leads to numerous false accusations. It's a troubling circumstance. Why do you believe this to be the case? From my perspective, I've seen very few examples of false accusation (certainly not enough to call them "numerous") and many more examples of actions that go unpunished. Really I think that's what defines the core of our difference in view. You seem to believe that there is some great number of false accusations flying around, and further that these false accusations are causing innocent people great harm. On the other hand, I see many instances of people who should be punished for actions that are unacceptable go completely without consequence. Can you see why, from my perspective, I don't see our current situation as tragic, and indeed see it as a vast improvement over the past (which had an even greater number of unpunished actions).

metaphorm 9y ago
to be clear, I don't believe the moral panic has set in at private employers yet in the way it has in the university, but I see more and more steps in that direction every day and the YAG mailing list is too close for comfort, in my opinion. It's one moderator slip-up away from becoming noxious.
- joshuamorton 9y ago
  As a very recent graduate, my same comments apply, more or less, to universities.
  - metaphorm 9y ago
    as someone with more years and perspective than a very recent graduate, I would encourage you to consider your critics more seriously and reflect on why so many people are deeply disturbed by what is going on in the academy right now.
    - joshuamorton 9y ago
      >as someone with more years and perspective Wasn't it you who said we should speak in good faith. I prefer not to be patronized. I asked you a question, which applied equally to universities as workplaces, that could be summed up as "As someone who has recently been at a university, and is currently in a workplace, I am aware of many more (perhaps orders of magnitude more) instances of abuse that goes unreported or unpunished as compared to instances of people being falsely accused of things. Given that, why should I take your concerns seriously, other than your wisdom and perspective?" You avoided it. Its difficult to take your concerns seriously when you avoid explaining them. Or in other words, I have anecdotal evidence that a lot of harassment goes unreported, and similarly anecdotal evidence that relatively few accusations are false ones, and anecdotal evidence that in many cases, being forced out or punished for perceived harassment won't actually have a lasting negative impact, and certainly won't be life-ruining. Actual data tends to agree with me. If, as I believe, for every 1 false accusation of something, 10 instances of that thing go unreported, why should I stand for focussing resources on providing additional (and perhaps unnecessary) protections to the 1, when at the same time there are 10 victims, and perhaps 10 assailants, who go without justice and punishment, respectively?