8 ms·

As someone who trends towards heavily accommodating, I often seem to find my actions that I judge as selfish or arrogant are the ones that I get respect for. De

As someone who trends towards heavily accommodating, I often seem to find my actions that I judge as selfish or arrogant are the ones that I get respect for. Definitely a phenomena I don't understand, but its real so it should be very valuable to learn where to draw the line.

rdiddly 9y ago
Put it in the context of dominance and submission among apes and it becomes clear. The one who does nice things for you is displaying a submissive posture and trying to win your favor. They are probably your social inferior: beneath you in the hierarchy, or at most, a peer. The one who doesn't care about you and does what he wants, shows that he's above you in the hierarchy. And some people just can't resist their internal ape tendency to think "wow that's sure an impressive alpha ape right there." But some, who consider themselves alphas themselves, will take it as a challenge. Etc. etc. etc. All somewhat dreary thoughts in the light of soaring techno-optimist talk about the glory of the human spirit, but I think we're all still apes and I've said so, enough times on HN, that I'm at risk of becoming known as the "ape guy." Manners are in fact detailed prescriptive means & methods for being submissive, or rather for sending submissive signals, as the default behavior in societies where there are more humans living together than normal, i.e. anytime after 1800 when the population really started to shoot upward and to urbanize. It ends up being very practical to train people to be submissive in an urban industrial society, because if you have a thousand supposed self-declared alpha-apes constantly fighting it out "out there," things become a mess very quickly. Edit: to the respondents, I am intentionally keeping morality out of it (decency and so forth), because a strictly moralistic right/wrong judgment-based view didn't seem to be enhancing the parent's understanding. But dominance & submission, like morality, is just another narrow rubric for viewing the world, doesn't describe the whole world, and isn't the only way of describing the world. So it's best not to take it too far beyond a blurry big-picture view!
- graphitezepp 9y ago
  Nice perspective. Also an ape guy (love reminding telling people we are just silly monkeys), and I think there is probably a lot of truth to looking at it this way.
- dfraser992 9y ago
  Some distinctions need to be made here about manners, I think. Manners is largely social grease to keep interactions working smoothly; it is supposed to be about acknowledging the other person and treating them with some basic and fundamental respect. Real manners, in other words. The manners you speak of are the hypocritical sort - e.g. calling Trump "Mr. President" even though he deserves no respect in any sort of situation, just because he is "the President". It is this sort of manners where people (i.e. the talking chimpanzees) get upset because social protocols are being violated - the social protocols used to enforce submission, dominance, and status. These social protocols are used to cover up all the bullshit talking chimpanzees like to get up to.
- le-mark 9y ago
  This equating of manners to a submissive posture is odd to me. One wonders what is meant by "manners". Saying yes, please, thank you, and holding a door are by no means submissive acts. Table manners, or not acting boarish while dining, is not submissive. Conducting oneself in a respectful, cordial manner is not submissive. However fawning and currying favor may indeed be submissive, but are not proscribed by any idea of "politeness" I am aware of. Excessive accommodation to the detriment of yourself and your interests would also be submissive in my view.
  - lacampbell 9y ago
    This equating of manners to a submissive posture is odd to me. One wonders what is meant by "manners". Saying yes, please, thank you, and holding a door are by no means submissive acts. Table manners, or not acting boarish while dining, is not submissive. Conducting oneself in a respectful, cordial manner is not submissive. I disagree, I think it is more submissive than doing the opposite. But that's not a bad thing - people who are never submissive don't fit into society. They have terrible manners and drive dangerously, like you point out. A certain amount of strength is admired, but too much and you're almost unilaterally rejected.
    - n8n3k 9y ago
      Yes. Always and never submitting will both cost you your freedom. If you always submit you'll never get to to do anything you want, if you never submit you'll literally go to jail. But some people might be so submissive by nature that "Never Submit" is good advice for them, because in those situations where they really should submit it will never even occur to them not to.
- zaptheimpaler 9y ago
  Have you heard Apeman by The Kinks? I think you would enjoy it! Its the same sentiment in musical form, always really resonated with me because its so true.
- erkkie 9y ago
  Curious about your thoughts on evo psych.
  - rdiddly 9y ago
    I think it explains a lot of things nicely, as a good theoretical framework should. But I'm also a little cautiously skeptical about it, because you're working backwards, without benefit of any real-time experimental data, so it's almost impossible to keep "present-day bias" out of it.
- knopkop 9y ago
  This reminds me of 'Human Zoo' by the zoologist Desmond Morris, which is a fascinating read.
- mcguire 9y ago
  Manners are also a way of preventing two dominant individuals from coming into conflict over irrelevancies. And, if you don't think manners can be used aggressively...
watwut 9y ago
Do you have a concrete example?
lacampbell 9y ago
I often seem to find my actions that I judge as selfish or arrogant are the ones that I get respect for. A lot of timid people are attracted to strong people. You say the things they wish they had the bravery to say, and they respect it. It's aspirational.
im3w1l 9y ago
If you have a strong bias towards accomodating, then the rare instances where you choose a different approach are presumably ones where it is strongly called for. It would make sense that you get respect for taking the right course of action. Someone who is almost always selfish may find they are the most respected when they accomodate.
Doxin 9y ago
I think it's probably related to the fact that, for most people, there's a right amount of selfish and that amount isn't anywhere near 0. People would much rather get a no than a reluctant yes, even if they themselves don't realise this.

rdiddly 9y ago

Put it in the context of dominance and submission among apes and it becomes clear. The one who does nice things for you is displaying a submissive posture and trying to win your favor. They are probably your social inferior: beneath you in the hierarchy, or at most, a peer. The one who doesn't care about you and does what he wants, shows that he's above you in the hierarchy. And some people just can't resist their internal ape tendency to think "wow that's sure an impressive alpha ape right there." But some, who consider themselves alphas themselves, will take it as a challenge. Etc. etc. etc. All somewhat dreary thoughts in the light of soaring techno-optimist talk about the glory of the human spirit, but I think we're all still apes and I've said so, enough times on HN, that I'm at risk of becoming known as the "ape guy." Manners are in fact detailed prescriptive means & methods for being submissive, or rather for sending submissive signals, as the default behavior in societies where there are more humans living together than normal, i.e. anytime after 1800 when the population really started to shoot upward and to urbanize. It ends up being very practical to train people to be submissive in an urban industrial society, because if you have a thousand supposed self-declared alpha-apes constantly fighting it out "out there," things become a mess very quickly. Edit: to the respondents, I am intentionally keeping morality out of it (decency and so forth), because a strictly moralistic right/wrong judgment-based view didn't seem to be enhancing the parent's understanding. But dominance & submission, like morality, is just another narrow rubric for viewing the world, doesn't describe the whole world, and isn't the only way of describing the world. So it's best not to take it too far beyond a blurry big-picture view!

graphitezepp 9y ago
Nice perspective. Also an ape guy (love reminding telling people we are just silly monkeys), and I think there is probably a lot of truth to looking at it this way.
dfraser992 9y ago
Some distinctions need to be made here about manners, I think. Manners is largely social grease to keep interactions working smoothly; it is supposed to be about acknowledging the other person and treating them with some basic and fundamental respect. Real manners, in other words. The manners you speak of are the hypocritical sort - e.g. calling Trump "Mr. President" even though he deserves no respect in any sort of situation, just because he is "the President". It is this sort of manners where people (i.e. the talking chimpanzees) get upset because social protocols are being violated - the social protocols used to enforce submission, dominance, and status. These social protocols are used to cover up all the bullshit talking chimpanzees like to get up to.
le-mark 9y ago
This equating of manners to a submissive posture is odd to me. One wonders what is meant by "manners". Saying yes, please, thank you, and holding a door are by no means submissive acts. Table manners, or not acting boarish while dining, is not submissive. Conducting oneself in a respectful, cordial manner is not submissive. However fawning and currying favor may indeed be submissive, but are not proscribed by any idea of "politeness" I am aware of. Excessive accommodation to the detriment of yourself and your interests would also be submissive in my view.
- lacampbell 9y ago
  This equating of manners to a submissive posture is odd to me. One wonders what is meant by "manners". Saying yes, please, thank you, and holding a door are by no means submissive acts. Table manners, or not acting boarish while dining, is not submissive. Conducting oneself in a respectful, cordial manner is not submissive. I disagree, I think it is more submissive than doing the opposite. But that's not a bad thing - people who are never submissive don't fit into society. They have terrible manners and drive dangerously, like you point out. A certain amount of strength is admired, but too much and you're almost unilaterally rejected.
  - n8n3k 9y ago
    Yes. Always and never submitting will both cost you your freedom. If you always submit you'll never get to to do anything you want, if you never submit you'll literally go to jail. But some people might be so submissive by nature that "Never Submit" is good advice for them, because in those situations where they really should submit it will never even occur to them not to.
zaptheimpaler 9y ago
Have you heard Apeman by The Kinks? I think you would enjoy it! Its the same sentiment in musical form, always really resonated with me because its so true.
erkkie 9y ago
Curious about your thoughts on evo psych.
- rdiddly 9y ago
  I think it explains a lot of things nicely, as a good theoretical framework should. But I'm also a little cautiously skeptical about it, because you're working backwards, without benefit of any real-time experimental data, so it's almost impossible to keep "present-day bias" out of it.
knopkop 9y ago
This reminds me of 'Human Zoo' by the zoologist Desmond Morris, which is a fascinating read.
mcguire 9y ago
Manners are also a way of preventing two dominant individuals from coming into conflict over irrelevancies. And, if you don't think manners can be used aggressively...

watwut 9y ago

Do you have a concrete example?

lacampbell 9y ago

I often seem to find my actions that I judge as selfish or arrogant are the ones that I get respect for. A lot of timid people are attracted to strong people. You say the things they wish they had the bravery to say, and they respect it. It's aspirational.

im3w1l 9y ago

If you have a strong bias towards accomodating, then the rare instances where you choose a different approach are presumably ones where it is strongly called for. It would make sense that you get respect for taking the right course of action. Someone who is almost always selfish may find they are the most respected when they accomodate.

Doxin 9y ago

I think it's probably related to the fact that, for most people, there's a right amount of selfish and that amount isn't anywhere near 0. People would much rather get a no than a reluctant yes, even if they themselves don't realise this.