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When I played Marco Polo as a kid, I would cheat. When I was “it”, I’d yell out “Marco!” like you’re supposed to, but I also opened my eyes underwater a little

When I played Marco Polo as a kid, I would cheat. When I was “it”, I’d yell out “Marco!” like you’re supposed to, but I also opened my eyes underwater a little bit to see where the other kids were. One day a friend brought over special goggles. They were covered in black vinyl to block your vision completely. That day we all found out that every one of us cheated the same way. When playing with the new goggles, suddenly it was: “this game sucks” and: “let’s do something else”. It was eye-opening (sorry). Cheating on emissions tests strikes me the same way. “All the other car companies seem to be meeting their targets, how can we keep up?” Well, it turns out that to be as good as the other players, you have to cheat just like they do.

transpostmeta 9y ago
I always wondered why companies don't try to catch each other cheating. If would seem that if Ford wanted to, they could easily figure out VW was cheating, and go to the press and government with that info.
- vertex-four 9y ago
  Because all companies cheat in some way, and intentionally going to war when you know you're not clean yourself isn't a good idea.
- thmsths 9y ago
  My first guess would be that since they would probably be cheating too they wouldn't want to attract attention on this issue.
- nkrisc 9y ago
  Glass houses, throwing stones, and all that.
- abakker 9y ago
  Wouldn't the basic prisoner's dilemma suggest that they have to be colluding?
- jessaustin 9y ago
  The day Ford execs testified in favor of bailing out both GM and Chrysler, it was clear that they have little interest in beating their supposed competitors.
- refurb 9y ago
  Interestingly, this is what happens in the pharmaceutical world. The FDA has a "bad ad" program where you can report pharmaceutical advertising that falls outside regulations. Who is responsible for the majority of reports? Competing company's sales reps who see competitor materials when they visit doctor's offices.
- usrusr 9y ago
  “New cars are so much cleaner than your old car" is a cross-brand claim that is important for the whole industry. Any damage to that claim would increase replacement cycles. The best case scenario for telling on competitors would be a larger fraction of a smaller market, worse outcomes would involve a similar or smaller fraction of an even smaller market (after symmetric response accusations hitting your own brand). You don't sell Marlboros by pointing out that smoking Lucky Strike might cause cancer.
kwhitefoot 9y ago
> Well, it turns out that to be as good as the other players, you have to cheat just like they do If you mean doing the same kind of cheating that your competitors are doing then this implies knowledge of the method so you don't need to cheat. You can level the playing field by instead publicizing the fact that your competitors are cheating. You don't even need to name names. Just lobby governments to implement tests that will uncover it. Get tests done on your competitors vehicles by independent laboratories, ponder in public the question that reverse engineering the engine management code might be worthwhile.
- function_seven 9y ago
  > If you mean doing the same kind of cheating that your competitors are doing then this implies knowledge of the method On the contrary. When I was cheating at Marco Polo, I thought I was the only one. That I wasn't as good as the other players who were playing honestly, so I cheated to make up for the deficiency. Your point still stands, though. These aren't kids in a pool. They're engineers who should be testing the competition's product, and discovering the defeat devices.
  - jfim 9y ago
    > They're engineers who should be testing the competition's product, and discovering the defeat devices. But if both parties are cheating, what's the incentive to bring light to this problem?
    - kwhitefoot 9y ago
      Having a head start in doing things without cheating and saving the money that would be spent on fines.
LordKano 9y ago
Maybe that's why I was always so terrible at that game. I never cheated.
YCode 9y ago
I always took it as the fish out of water rule -- it's only cheating if you get caught.

transpostmeta 9y ago

I always wondered why companies don't try to catch each other cheating. If would seem that if Ford wanted to, they could easily figure out VW was cheating, and go to the press and government with that info.

vertex-four 9y ago
Because all companies cheat in some way, and intentionally going to war when you know you're not clean yourself isn't a good idea.
thmsths 9y ago
My first guess would be that since they would probably be cheating too they wouldn't want to attract attention on this issue.
nkrisc 9y ago
Glass houses, throwing stones, and all that.
abakker 9y ago
Wouldn't the basic prisoner's dilemma suggest that they have to be colluding?
jessaustin 9y ago
The day Ford execs testified in favor of bailing out both GM and Chrysler, it was clear that they have little interest in beating their supposed competitors.
refurb 9y ago
Interestingly, this is what happens in the pharmaceutical world. The FDA has a "bad ad" program where you can report pharmaceutical advertising that falls outside regulations. Who is responsible for the majority of reports? Competing company's sales reps who see competitor materials when they visit doctor's offices.
usrusr 9y ago
“New cars are so much cleaner than your old car" is a cross-brand claim that is important for the whole industry. Any damage to that claim would increase replacement cycles. The best case scenario for telling on competitors would be a larger fraction of a smaller market, worse outcomes would involve a similar or smaller fraction of an even smaller market (after symmetric response accusations hitting your own brand). You don't sell Marlboros by pointing out that smoking Lucky Strike might cause cancer.

kwhitefoot 9y ago

> Well, it turns out that to be as good as the other players, you have to cheat just like they do If you mean doing the same kind of cheating that your competitors are doing then this implies knowledge of the method so you don't need to cheat. You can level the playing field by instead publicizing the fact that your competitors are cheating. You don't even need to name names. Just lobby governments to implement tests that will uncover it. Get tests done on your competitors vehicles by independent laboratories, ponder in public the question that reverse engineering the engine management code might be worthwhile.

function_seven 9y ago
> If you mean doing the same kind of cheating that your competitors are doing then this implies knowledge of the method On the contrary. When I was cheating at Marco Polo, I thought I was the only one. That I wasn't as good as the other players who were playing honestly, so I cheated to make up for the deficiency. Your point still stands, though. These aren't kids in a pool. They're engineers who should be testing the competition's product, and discovering the defeat devices.
- jfim 9y ago
  > They're engineers who should be testing the competition's product, and discovering the defeat devices. But if both parties are cheating, what's the incentive to bring light to this problem?
  - kwhitefoot 9y ago
    Having a head start in doing things without cheating and saving the money that would be spent on fines.

LordKano 9y ago

Maybe that's why I was always so terrible at that game. I never cheated.

YCode 9y ago

I always took it as the fish out of water rule -- it's only cheating if you get caught.