6 ms·

> Somalia is way worse than high-functioning governments like the United States Yet my libertarian friends on Facebook all seem to want to tear the enitre gove

> Somalia is way worse than high-functioning governments like the United States Yet my libertarian friends on Facebook all seem to want to tear the enitre government down.

lowpro 9y ago
There is a difference between Anarchy and libertarianism. Most libertarians want less government, not no government.
- redblacktree 9y ago
  From my perspective, the libertarian vision "less government" looks a lot like "no government." Just defense and contract enforcement, right? With ridiculous notions like environmental issues being handled by courts.
- brewdad 9y ago
  But less government tends to lead to no government, or right back to where we are today depending on how strongly held one's beliefs are. Good luck finding two people to agree on what exactly should be cut on the road to "less".
- creepydata 9y ago
  Less than what exactly?
rootusrootus 9y ago
At the risk of heading even further down this rabbit hole, I'd observe that there are very many significant differences between Somalia and the United States and that the existence of government is just one small part.
- skaplun 9y ago
  If George Washington declared himself king, you might be looking today at 30% unemployment like some of the euros
  - tehwebguy 9y ago
    What is the point you were trying to make?
    - skaplun 9y ago
      "that the existence of government is just one small part." I dont think you can qualify government as "just one small part". America would not be in the same place today without the decisions taken over time by its leaders. The same decisions would not be made under a different system of incentives for a leader like a monarchy/anarchy
      - timthelion 9y ago
        It wouldn't be the same place, but it would still have enjoyed the highest natural-resource to population ration of any nation in history. Coal, Iron, Oil, Natural Gas, Gold, Wood, Water, Arible land, Uranium, Aluminium, Copper, all in great supply. The only comparable nations I can think of are Australia and Brazil, and their relative wealth is rather well explained by the overall wealth gradient nearing the equator:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_and_wealth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_and_wealth
  - kwhitefoot 9y ago
    Most of the European states that have monarchs (Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Netherlands for instance) are doing alright, Spain is an outlier.
    - omginternets 9y ago
      Let's not forget the UK.
      - kwhitefoot 9y ago
        I haven't forgotten the UK. It's where I come from. Unfortunately the saying: "The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there." applies. So I sometimes try to avoid mentioning it, and especially anything to do with Brit royalty.
- coldtea 9y ago
  >I'd observe that there are very many significant differences between Somalia and the United States and that the existence of government is just one small part. Could it be that "the existence of government" plays a big role in there being "very many significant differences between Somalia and the United States"? Advanced countries can turn into rubble very fast if central government collapses -- grabs for power, civil wars, etc. Heck: https://searchingforsyria.org/en/how-can-i-help-syrian-refugees/ https://searchingforsyria.org/en/how-can-i-help-syrian-refug...
creepydata 9y ago
Strange thing is the same friends would not live in Somolia if given the chance...
- abarrettjo 9y ago
  I would question your assumption there; plenty of Somali diaspora move back and live in Somalia or Somaliland.
gozur88 9y ago
I keep reading that on HN, but after hanging around libertarians for a lifetime, I've never met a single one who said that. Usually Somalia comes up in the context of someone wanting a bigger government and dismissively telling libertarians "Why doncha just move to Somalia? Huh?" Is that maybe what you're thinking of?
afsina 9y ago
What many libertarians want is decentralization. As much as possible. They probably want to get rid of all powerful Federal Government but local governments (as small as possible) and confederations are usually fine.
- thanksgiving 9y ago
  And now we will soon have "separate but equal" restrooms in Texas. I find state rights advocates to be the worst™ people in the world. They advocate for state rights when it suits them. Absolutely hypocritical bunch. We've decided as a nation that there are some rights and responsibilities that we have regardless of where we live within this nation. How many times do we have to fight for civil rights?
  - whatshisface 9y ago
    You're making the strange assumption that the federal government will always be be more in line with your own political views than your state government. After all, at the end of the day a hard-right state is less bad for liberals than a hard-right country, because only in the first case can they try to find a job in California.
    - lostcolony 9y ago
      Yes, he's assuming the government will not be terrible to live under. But saying "at least with local government, terrible governments will be localized" is a copout. Can we have non-terrible governments? If so, it makes sense to try and ensure everyone has one.
      - afsina 9y ago
        To me this is like telling "Government will be right for everyone this time, if we tweak the parameters right". Applying rules of Empiricism to large scale governing will just make things worse as long as people have very different world views. Besides, locality has inherent advantages such as familiarity, cultural similarity and accountability. So at least some local governments will be probably suitable for your liking.

> Somalia is way worse than high-functioning governments like the United States Yet my libertarian friends on Facebook all seem to want to tear the enitre government down.

lowpro 9y ago

There is a difference between Anarchy and libertarianism. Most libertarians want less government, not no government.

redblacktree 9y ago
From my perspective, the libertarian vision "less government" looks a lot like "no government." Just defense and contract enforcement, right? With ridiculous notions like environmental issues being handled by courts.
brewdad 9y ago
But less government tends to lead to no government, or right back to where we are today depending on how strongly held one's beliefs are. Good luck finding two people to agree on what exactly should be cut on the road to "less".
creepydata 9y ago
Less than what exactly?

rootusrootus 9y ago

At the risk of heading even further down this rabbit hole, I'd observe that there are very many significant differences between Somalia and the United States and that the existence of government is just one small part.

skaplun 9y ago
If George Washington declared himself king, you might be looking today at 30% unemployment like some of the euros
- tehwebguy 9y ago
  What is the point you were trying to make?
  - skaplun 9y ago
    "that the existence of government is just one small part." I dont think you can qualify government as "just one small part". America would not be in the same place today without the decisions taken over time by its leaders. The same decisions would not be made under a different system of incentives for a leader like a monarchy/anarchy
    - timthelion 9y ago
      It wouldn't be the same place, but it would still have enjoyed the highest natural-resource to population ration of any nation in history. Coal, Iron, Oil, Natural Gas, Gold, Wood, Water, Arible land, Uranium, Aluminium, Copper, all in great supply. The only comparable nations I can think of are Australia and Brazil, and their relative wealth is rather well explained by the overall wealth gradient nearing the equator:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_and_wealth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_and_wealth
- kwhitefoot 9y ago
  Most of the European states that have monarchs (Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Netherlands for instance) are doing alright, Spain is an outlier.
  - omginternets 9y ago
    Let's not forget the UK.
    - kwhitefoot 9y ago
      I haven't forgotten the UK. It's where I come from. Unfortunately the saying: "The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there." applies. So I sometimes try to avoid mentioning it, and especially anything to do with Brit royalty.
coldtea 9y ago
>I'd observe that there are very many significant differences between Somalia and the United States and that the existence of government is just one small part. Could it be that "the existence of government" plays a big role in there being "very many significant differences between Somalia and the United States"? Advanced countries can turn into rubble very fast if central government collapses -- grabs for power, civil wars, etc. Heck: https://searchingforsyria.org/en/how-can-i-help-syrian-refugees/ https://searchingforsyria.org/en/how-can-i-help-syrian-refug...

creepydata 9y ago

Strange thing is the same friends would not live in Somolia if given the chance...

abarrettjo 9y ago
I would question your assumption there; plenty of Somali diaspora move back and live in Somalia or Somaliland.

gozur88 9y ago

I keep reading that on HN, but after hanging around libertarians for a lifetime, I've never met a single one who said that. Usually Somalia comes up in the context of someone wanting a bigger government and dismissively telling libertarians "Why doncha just move to Somalia? Huh?" Is that maybe what you're thinking of?

afsina 9y ago

What many libertarians want is decentralization. As much as possible. They probably want to get rid of all powerful Federal Government but local governments (as small as possible) and confederations are usually fine.

thanksgiving 9y ago
And now we will soon have "separate but equal" restrooms in Texas. I find state rights advocates to be the worst™ people in the world. They advocate for state rights when it suits them. Absolutely hypocritical bunch. We've decided as a nation that there are some rights and responsibilities that we have regardless of where we live within this nation. How many times do we have to fight for civil rights?
- whatshisface 9y ago
  You're making the strange assumption that the federal government will always be be more in line with your own political views than your state government. After all, at the end of the day a hard-right state is less bad for liberals than a hard-right country, because only in the first case can they try to find a job in California.
  - lostcolony 9y ago
    Yes, he's assuming the government will not be terrible to live under. But saying "at least with local government, terrible governments will be localized" is a copout. Can we have non-terrible governments? If so, it makes sense to try and ensure everyone has one.
    - afsina 9y ago
      To me this is like telling "Government will be right for everyone this time, if we tweak the parameters right". Applying rules of Empiricism to large scale governing will just make things worse as long as people have very different world views. Besides, locality has inherent advantages such as familiarity, cultural similarity and accountability. So at least some local governments will be probably suitable for your liking.