5 ms·

I don't see what's massively objectionable about wanting to build a community based on tolerance, kindness and mutual respect.

geofft 9y ago
It's an existential threat for people who want to be intolerant, unkind, and disrespectful, because it makes it clear that spaces that don't accept such behavior end up being at least as productive and as useful for the world as spaces that do. Therefore it's extremely important for such people to establish the world as a a safe space against safe spaces, and to push the idea that such spaces are untenable or morally bad or whatever will avoid more of those spaces existing.
- seibelj 9y ago
  Alternatively, you can close your eyes, cover your ears, turn off the radio, change the channel, close the browser, do literally anything else. Some people are anti-censorship in all its forms, but you have a nice straw man going there. Freedom of speech, freedom of thought
- LordKano 9y ago
  I make an effort to not be intolerant but I have found myself being attacked for holding beliefs and political positions that are "outside of the mainstream" and there are people who can not tolerate that. I like that they made the attempt to build this but I would have never joined it because I could see myself getting into conflicts because of my beliefs.
  - kristianc 9y ago
    Would you join a Subreddit which reinforces these political beliefs and is that not a safe space in itself? It seems to me that everywhere on the internet that you might class as a 'haven of free speech' (whether it's 4chan, Twitter, Mumsnet or Atheists Rationalist Skeptics Anonymous) comes with an underlying set of social norms which to some extent preconfigure the kind of debate that will happen there. Imzy is just another one of those, no?
    - LordKano 9y ago
      Would you join a Subreddit which reinforces these political beliefs and is that not a safe space in itself? If I understand your question, yes. I would join such a Subreddit because an echo-chamber isn't what I seek. I completely agree with forbidding things like doxing or making threats of violence but I'm concerned that "Safe spaces" only encourage intolerance towards other points of view. Disagreement is good. Maybe I'm wrong and you can show me a side that I had never considered. Maybe you're wrong and I can present an argument that changes how you think about something. I have had my mind changed by a persuasive argument in the past. Perhaps I will again in the future. I have friends that I have seen change their views over time and I hope that I was at least a part of what caused them to change on those issues.
      - kristianc 9y ago
        > If I understand your question, yes. I would join such a Subreddit because an echo-chamber isn't what I seek. Good. > I completely agree with forbidding things like doxing or making threats of violence but I'm concerned that "Safe spaces" only encourage intolerance towards other points of view. Now now. If I went on /r/the_donald and started leaving comments about Gun Control, Trans Rights and Abortion, you and I both have a fairly good idea what would happen. How do I know that? Well, a giant Pepe the fucking Frog fills half the screen when I even load the page, for a start, and I literally cannot upvote in /r/the_donald until I click the frog and subscribe. It's the online equivalent of a pub hanging a sign on the door saying who it welcomes in. Sure, you can ignore it, but are you really going to? It's a de facto safe space. In fact, it's not even really a de-facto safe space, given Rule VI of The Donald is "This forum is for Trump supporters only." and if rule VII - "No linking to other sub-reddits" doesn't make it an echo chamber, I don't know what does. Likewise, If I went on a Democrats subreddit and started raising Republican talking points, I'd be shown the door pretty quickly. The issue isn't "pro" or "anti" safe-spaces, because everywhere is a safe space to someone. It's when people start to get selective about which safe spaces they're going to allow that gets to people.
        EdiX 9y ago
        > Now now. If I went on /r/the_donald and started leaving comments about Gun Control, Trans Rights and Abortion, you and I both have a fairly good idea what would happen. /r/the_donald has become (or maybe always was) a safe space for 1488 identitarians. Things like /r/The_Donald and Stormfront are part of the problem just as much as safe space policies. > Well, a giant Pepe the fucking Frog fills half the screen when I even load the page, for a start, and I literally cannot upvote in /r/the_donald until I click the frog and subscribe Disable custom CSS, it's a dumb feature anyway.
zer00eyz 9y ago
It is a great idea for sure but "tolerance, kindness and mutual respect" live on a spectrum... and people are all at different points on it. What I find funny you might find offensive (thats how humor works some times) by trying to have rules and enforce them your always pissing someone off... the less you have the better and let people be their own filter.
dredmorbius 9y ago
Problem is, that's not what it was in reality. Worse, several of the interaction, UI/UX, and management decisions simply amplified the initial bias (as is often the case). Imzy was doomed out of the gate, despite some interesting ideas.
EdiX 9y ago
It's not objectionable, it's just impossible. Well, not completely impossible, you can do that if all you allow is pictures of food, kittens and flowers and people responding with the thumbs up emoji (actually I'm not so sure about food anymore). But at soon as you allow discussion of something even slightly substantive people will start to perceive some opinions as attacks on their ego. No matter how rational and dispassionate an argument objectively is, someone will perceive it as violence. What happens is that "tolerance, kindness and mutual respect" becomes "protection of the moderator's ego" and adherence to an ever expanding set of intellectual dogmas.

geofft 9y ago

It's an existential threat for people who want to be intolerant, unkind, and disrespectful, because it makes it clear that spaces that don't accept such behavior end up being at least as productive and as useful for the world as spaces that do. Therefore it's extremely important for such people to establish the world as a a safe space against safe spaces, and to push the idea that such spaces are untenable or morally bad or whatever will avoid more of those spaces existing.

seibelj 9y ago
Alternatively, you can close your eyes, cover your ears, turn off the radio, change the channel, close the browser, do literally anything else. Some people are anti-censorship in all its forms, but you have a nice straw man going there. Freedom of speech, freedom of thought
LordKano 9y ago
I make an effort to not be intolerant but I have found myself being attacked for holding beliefs and political positions that are "outside of the mainstream" and there are people who can not tolerate that. I like that they made the attempt to build this but I would have never joined it because I could see myself getting into conflicts because of my beliefs.
- kristianc 9y ago
  Would you join a Subreddit which reinforces these political beliefs and is that not a safe space in itself? It seems to me that everywhere on the internet that you might class as a 'haven of free speech' (whether it's 4chan, Twitter, Mumsnet or Atheists Rationalist Skeptics Anonymous) comes with an underlying set of social norms which to some extent preconfigure the kind of debate that will happen there. Imzy is just another one of those, no?
  - LordKano 9y ago
    Would you join a Subreddit which reinforces these political beliefs and is that not a safe space in itself? If I understand your question, yes. I would join such a Subreddit because an echo-chamber isn't what I seek. I completely agree with forbidding things like doxing or making threats of violence but I'm concerned that "Safe spaces" only encourage intolerance towards other points of view. Disagreement is good. Maybe I'm wrong and you can show me a side that I had never considered. Maybe you're wrong and I can present an argument that changes how you think about something. I have had my mind changed by a persuasive argument in the past. Perhaps I will again in the future. I have friends that I have seen change their views over time and I hope that I was at least a part of what caused them to change on those issues.
    - kristianc 9y ago
      > If I understand your question, yes. I would join such a Subreddit because an echo-chamber isn't what I seek. Good. > I completely agree with forbidding things like doxing or making threats of violence but I'm concerned that "Safe spaces" only encourage intolerance towards other points of view. Now now. If I went on /r/the_donald and started leaving comments about Gun Control, Trans Rights and Abortion, you and I both have a fairly good idea what would happen. How do I know that? Well, a giant Pepe the fucking Frog fills half the screen when I even load the page, for a start, and I literally cannot upvote in /r/the_donald until I click the frog and subscribe. It's the online equivalent of a pub hanging a sign on the door saying who it welcomes in. Sure, you can ignore it, but are you really going to? It's a de facto safe space. In fact, it's not even really a de-facto safe space, given Rule VI of The Donald is "This forum is for Trump supporters only." and if rule VII - "No linking to other sub-reddits" doesn't make it an echo chamber, I don't know what does. Likewise, If I went on a Democrats subreddit and started raising Republican talking points, I'd be shown the door pretty quickly. The issue isn't "pro" or "anti" safe-spaces, because everywhere is a safe space to someone. It's when people start to get selective about which safe spaces they're going to allow that gets to people.
      - EdiX 9y ago
        > Now now. If I went on /r/the_donald and started leaving comments about Gun Control, Trans Rights and Abortion, you and I both have a fairly good idea what would happen. /r/the_donald has become (or maybe always was) a safe space for 1488 identitarians. Things like /r/The_Donald and Stormfront are part of the problem just as much as safe space policies. > Well, a giant Pepe the fucking Frog fills half the screen when I even load the page, for a start, and I literally cannot upvote in /r/the_donald until I click the frog and subscribe Disable custom CSS, it's a dumb feature anyway.

zer00eyz 9y ago

It is a great idea for sure but "tolerance, kindness and mutual respect" live on a spectrum... and people are all at different points on it. What I find funny you might find offensive (thats how humor works some times) by trying to have rules and enforce them your always pissing someone off... the less you have the better and let people be their own filter.

dredmorbius 9y ago

Problem is, that's not what it was in reality. Worse, several of the interaction, UI/UX, and management decisions simply amplified the initial bias (as is often the case). Imzy was doomed out of the gate, despite some interesting ideas.

EdiX 9y ago

It's not objectionable, it's just impossible. Well, not completely impossible, you can do that if all you allow is pictures of food, kittens and flowers and people responding with the thumbs up emoji (actually I'm not so sure about food anymore). But at soon as you allow discussion of something even slightly substantive people will start to perceive some opinions as attacks on their ego. No matter how rational and dispassionate an argument objectively is, someone will perceive it as violence. What happens is that "tolerance, kindness and mutual respect" becomes "protection of the moderator's ego" and adherence to an ever expanding set of intellectual dogmas.