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> I've done some React Native development and Xcode is almost entirely avoided. Almost entirely avoided still means you have to go out and buy a Mac and keep X

> I've done some React Native development and Xcode is almost entirely avoided. Almost entirely avoided still means you have to go out and buy a Mac and keep Xcode running on it.

sams99 9y ago
sort of, I run a VM on Windows using VMWare workstation, involves binary patching the vmware executable, but hey, cheaper than buying a mac.
- mixedCase 9y ago
  Also illegal, so not a solution for non-hobbyists.
  - Teever 9y ago
    I don't think it's illegal in my country. Or most of the world really.
    - cmurf 9y ago
      Technically it's not illegal as in criminal, but it is a violation of the contract you're agreeing to in the form of the software license. And the macOS software license only permits running macOS on Apple hardware (it can run in a VM, but the VM host must be Apple hardware). I understand that some of these EULAs aren't enforceable everywhere, in the form of consumer protection laws inhibiting what's basically perceived to be bullying behavior. At least in the U.S. consumer protection laws are weaker, depending on the idea that when consumers are bullied, they'll spend their money elsewhere. In a global market, asymmetric consumer protection laws aid bully behaviors. The countries were people are safe flaunting EULAs may have higher usage rates of software with unfavorable EULAs, rather than using alternatives with a more favorable EULA.
      - ElijahLynn 9y ago
        Another reason Apple is BS. "macOS software license only permits running macOS on Apple hardware", I disagree with Apple so hard here. What a scam.
        cmurf 9y ago
        They've always been this way. There was a short period of time with Mac clones, but there was still a license that said you could only run macOS on Apple hardware, or Apple licencee hardware. I totally understand not liking the license, but if you click the agree button when installing the software on non-Apple hardware, you're basically lying.
    - Kipters 9y ago
      It's against Apple licenses (for macOS and for the App Store)
  - s73ver 9y ago
    If you're a company, buy a used Mac, then. They're honestly not that expensive, especially considering all of the other stuff you have to pay for as a business.
  - sqeaky 9y ago
    Apple doesn't write laws and someone with no contract with is not bound by their rules. If you acquired Mac OS X legally how would this be illegal? I will admit acquiring it legally could be tricky, but that is not what we were calling illegal was it?
    - khedoros1 9y ago
      Breach of the terms under which the OS was licensed to you. You can acquire the software legally pretty easily: buy a box in one of their retail stores. The (mostly-untested) theory is that clicking "I agree" on the license is a legally-binding contract between you and Apple. The Mac OSX license repeatedly says that a requirement of the use of the software is that it be used on Apple-branded hardware. So, "illegal" based on unlicensed use of copyrighted material or based on breach of contract. At least, that's how I understand the argument.
bobsam 9y ago
"almost entirely avoided" in this context really means "you absolutely need to buy a Mac but you may not need to use it all the time"
k-mcgrady 9y ago
Yes but what I got from the article was that 'you have to use Xcode and Xcode sucks/is a pain to use'. In my (limited) cross-platform dev experience you open Xcode to press 'run' so your app runs on device (and you can do this from the command line if you prefer) and to 'archive' which brings you through a wizard to upload your app. So you avoid all of the Xcode pain points.
s73ver 9y ago
Oh noes, you need the platform of the device manufacturer to develop for it. Whatever shall we do. Seriously, I can never take this argument seriously.
- khedoros1 9y ago
  You've got to buy the device itself? OK, makes sense. You've got to buy PC hardware, but are obligated by the software license to buy it from one particular vendor? OK, yeah, there's a business reason for it, but it's irritating because there's no technical reason. I can easily develop iOS software without owning an Apple computer...but I can't do it legally. I'm happy I'm not in mobile dev, and this is one reason.
htormey 9y ago
If you do ReactNative and you don't need to write native code you can avoid this by using expo.

> I've done some React Native development and Xcode is almost entirely avoided. Almost entirely avoided still means you have to go out and buy a Mac and keep Xcode running on it.

sams99 9y ago

sort of, I run a VM on Windows using VMWare workstation, involves binary patching the vmware executable, but hey, cheaper than buying a mac.

mixedCase 9y ago
Also illegal, so not a solution for non-hobbyists.
- Teever 9y ago
  I don't think it's illegal in my country. Or most of the world really.
  - cmurf 9y ago
    Technically it's not illegal as in criminal, but it is a violation of the contract you're agreeing to in the form of the software license. And the macOS software license only permits running macOS on Apple hardware (it can run in a VM, but the VM host must be Apple hardware). I understand that some of these EULAs aren't enforceable everywhere, in the form of consumer protection laws inhibiting what's basically perceived to be bullying behavior. At least in the U.S. consumer protection laws are weaker, depending on the idea that when consumers are bullied, they'll spend their money elsewhere. In a global market, asymmetric consumer protection laws aid bully behaviors. The countries were people are safe flaunting EULAs may have higher usage rates of software with unfavorable EULAs, rather than using alternatives with a more favorable EULA.
    - ElijahLynn 9y ago
      Another reason Apple is BS. "macOS software license only permits running macOS on Apple hardware", I disagree with Apple so hard here. What a scam.
      - cmurf 9y ago
        They've always been this way. There was a short period of time with Mac clones, but there was still a license that said you could only run macOS on Apple hardware, or Apple licencee hardware. I totally understand not liking the license, but if you click the agree button when installing the software on non-Apple hardware, you're basically lying.
  - Kipters 9y ago
    It's against Apple licenses (for macOS and for the App Store)
- s73ver 9y ago
  If you're a company, buy a used Mac, then. They're honestly not that expensive, especially considering all of the other stuff you have to pay for as a business.
- sqeaky 9y ago
  Apple doesn't write laws and someone with no contract with is not bound by their rules. If you acquired Mac OS X legally how would this be illegal? I will admit acquiring it legally could be tricky, but that is not what we were calling illegal was it?
  - khedoros1 9y ago
    Breach of the terms under which the OS was licensed to you. You can acquire the software legally pretty easily: buy a box in one of their retail stores. The (mostly-untested) theory is that clicking "I agree" on the license is a legally-binding contract between you and Apple. The Mac OSX license repeatedly says that a requirement of the use of the software is that it be used on Apple-branded hardware. So, "illegal" based on unlicensed use of copyrighted material or based on breach of contract. At least, that's how I understand the argument.

bobsam 9y ago

"almost entirely avoided" in this context really means "you absolutely need to buy a Mac but you may not need to use it all the time"

k-mcgrady 9y ago

Yes but what I got from the article was that 'you have to use Xcode and Xcode sucks/is a pain to use'. In my (limited) cross-platform dev experience you open Xcode to press 'run' so your app runs on device (and you can do this from the command line if you prefer) and to 'archive' which brings you through a wizard to upload your app. So you avoid all of the Xcode pain points.

s73ver 9y ago

Oh noes, you need the platform of the device manufacturer to develop for it. Whatever shall we do. Seriously, I can never take this argument seriously.

khedoros1 9y ago
You've got to buy the device itself? OK, makes sense. You've got to buy PC hardware, but are obligated by the software license to buy it from one particular vendor? OK, yeah, there's a business reason for it, but it's irritating because there's no technical reason. I can easily develop iOS software without owning an Apple computer...but I can't do it legally. I'm happy I'm not in mobile dev, and this is one reason.

htormey 9y ago

If you do ReactNative and you don't need to write native code you can avoid this by using expo.