4 ms·

Oh. See I thought the bigger concern would be the low health standards for dog biscuits, not simply being called out for inconsiderate behavior.

colanderman 9y ago
Simply calling students out for bad behavior is not usually a problem (though it can be in multicultural settings). Bringing them to the front of the room to humiliate them is another matter entirely. It denigrates them in the eyes of their classmates and sets them up for bullying by their peers by modeling that behavior.
- mapt 9y ago
  "Because of Tim here's behavior, none of you will get recess. Now I'm going to take a bathroom break, and you think about that, Tim." Doubtlessly effective, but is a culture of collective punishment, where we all beat the shit out of Tim for the next 15 minutes, really something you want to inculcate?
  - colanderman 9y ago
    Where did I advocate collective punishment? That is, as you say, terrible. To be clear, I find nothing wrong with Tim himself not getting recess. Individual punishment doesn't necessarily entail humiliation (which I think is the inference you're making).
    - mapt 9y ago
      Humiliation isn't collective punishment, but it shares the same mechanism of action: Have the rest of the class gang up on this one miscreant, and it will be more effective than anything the teacher is allowed to do privately as punishment. Children are feeling out a malleable sense of ethics and a somewhat delicate sense of self-worth; Bullying is common enough without any kind of institutional support, and anything that directs them down this path, even gently, is pretty dark. We are biologically programmed by natural selection to see rejection by our peer-group as a life and death matter.
- lovich 9y ago
  What is your suggestion for modifying behavior in children then? Rewards for good behavior only?
  - colanderman 9y ago
    See my other comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14410788 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14410788 There are many ways to punish children – taking away privileges is a good example – without denigrating them in front of their peers. (And even before reaching that point, talking with students who are acting out to understand what is causing them to do so often yields great results. But that's beside the point that humiliation is unnecessary.) (Aside, consistently rewarding good behavior is not a great way to modify behavior either, as behavior reverts shortly after rewards stop. Inconsistent rewards are better; encouraging self-motivation is best.)
    - JustSomeNobody 9y ago
      Some of those children acting out are doing so due to other trauma in their life. So, your suggestion of talking to them is a great one. Offering up choices is good. "You cannot have another yogurt, but you can either read a book or go play outside." Children need to have some control over their lives and when they feel they don't have it, they act up.

colanderman 9y ago

Simply calling students out for bad behavior is not usually a problem (though it can be in multicultural settings). Bringing them to the front of the room to humiliate them is another matter entirely. It denigrates them in the eyes of their classmates and sets them up for bullying by their peers by modeling that behavior.

mapt 9y ago
"Because of Tim here's behavior, none of you will get recess. Now I'm going to take a bathroom break, and you think about that, Tim." Doubtlessly effective, but is a culture of collective punishment, where we all beat the shit out of Tim for the next 15 minutes, really something you want to inculcate?
- colanderman 9y ago
  Where did I advocate collective punishment? That is, as you say, terrible. To be clear, I find nothing wrong with Tim himself not getting recess. Individual punishment doesn't necessarily entail humiliation (which I think is the inference you're making).
  - mapt 9y ago
    Humiliation isn't collective punishment, but it shares the same mechanism of action: Have the rest of the class gang up on this one miscreant, and it will be more effective than anything the teacher is allowed to do privately as punishment. Children are feeling out a malleable sense of ethics and a somewhat delicate sense of self-worth; Bullying is common enough without any kind of institutional support, and anything that directs them down this path, even gently, is pretty dark. We are biologically programmed by natural selection to see rejection by our peer-group as a life and death matter.
lovich 9y ago
What is your suggestion for modifying behavior in children then? Rewards for good behavior only?
- colanderman 9y ago
  See my other comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14410788 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14410788 There are many ways to punish children – taking away privileges is a good example – without denigrating them in front of their peers. (And even before reaching that point, talking with students who are acting out to understand what is causing them to do so often yields great results. But that's beside the point that humiliation is unnecessary.) (Aside, consistently rewarding good behavior is not a great way to modify behavior either, as behavior reverts shortly after rewards stop. Inconsistent rewards are better; encouraging self-motivation is best.)
  - JustSomeNobody 9y ago
    Some of those children acting out are doing so due to other trauma in their life. So, your suggestion of talking to them is a great one. Offering up choices is good. "You cannot have another yogurt, but you can either read a book or go play outside." Children need to have some control over their lives and when they feel they don't have it, they act up.