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After working with JSX, HTML/templating just feels like a step backwards. Web pages these days are far less about the template and far more about the logic and

by YCode 9y ago

After working with JSX, HTML/templating just feels like a step backwards. Web pages these days are far less about the template and far more about the logic and interactions involved. Subsequently building up from HTML the way pages used to be built and then embedding code doesn't really line up with the way modern web apps are developed. While it may have a niche in front-end design, for the kind of work I do at least it comes off as though the platform "allows" devs to build web apps entirely written in CSS.

marvindanig 9y ago
> Subsequently building up from HTML the way pages used to be built and then embedding code doesn't really line up with the way modern web apps are developed. Unfortunately the data doesn't agree with you. JSX, react and all that jazz is not used by 99.99% of the web. And NEVER will be! In fact react/vuejs/front-end frameworks are fancy only these days, the majority of web developers don't even use preprocessors for CSS or a templating engine like HAML/Markdown to begin with [1]. There's a reason why writing HTML has been kept simple. And forgiving. [1] https://blog.codepen.io/2013/04/08/statistics-on-preprocessor-usage/ https://blog.codepen.io/2013/04/08/statistics-on-preprocesso... Edits: Downvoted because it doesn't fit your narrative? Lame.
- YCode 9y ago
  > the way modern web apps are developed. I suppose that could have been worded differently, I meant it in the context of the original person mentioning HTML is their least favorite part of web design. For your 0.01% of us who use all that jazz HTML-first design feels like a step backwards and especially trying to inject application logic comes off as a ham-handed method of design when compared with a logic-first design that spits out and manages the UI (HTML/CSS). I'm not sure what CSS preprocessors has to do with that, but I'm also confused - what is your opinion of Mavo?
  - marvindanig 9y ago
    > I'm not sure what CSS preprocessors has to do with that… That even simpler step-ups like preprocessors with lower learning curves have not been adopted by the majority. Simplicity and lazy has a very high bar for any sort of competing tech. I agree with you that technical simplicity of HTML-first would feel a step backward because you have already climbed over the fence and accepted the issues of over-engineering that come with React/JSX/Webpack and 1000 other components. This of course doesn't mean HTML-first approach would be replaced anytime soon. Even with likes of Facebook betting their entire ass behind it. On Mavo: Not tried it yet, but I do see a promise in it. Also, coming from Lea Verou makes it all the more compelling.
    - YCode 9y ago
      It's true, there is a steep learning curve. I'm not sure that's a good comparison though, for example I don't use CSSPS but it has nothing to do with the learning curve. So for comparison, how do the majority of people design sites? Say you're making a HN or Twitter clone, what is the process from cradle to production to get the site up and running?

by YCode 9y ago

marvindanig 9y ago

> Subsequently building up from HTML the way pages used to be built and then embedding code doesn't really line up with the way modern web apps are developed. Unfortunately the data doesn't agree with you. JSX, react and all that jazz is not used by 99.99% of the web. And NEVER will be! In fact react/vuejs/front-end frameworks are fancy only these days, the majority of web developers don't even use preprocessors for CSS or a templating engine like HAML/Markdown to begin with [1]. There's a reason why writing HTML has been kept simple. And forgiving. [1] https://blog.codepen.io/2013/04/08/statistics-on-preprocessor-usage/ https://blog.codepen.io/2013/04/08/statistics-on-preprocesso... Edits: Downvoted because it doesn't fit your narrative? Lame.

YCode 9y ago
> the way modern web apps are developed. I suppose that could have been worded differently, I meant it in the context of the original person mentioning HTML is their least favorite part of web design. For your 0.01% of us who use all that jazz HTML-first design feels like a step backwards and especially trying to inject application logic comes off as a ham-handed method of design when compared with a logic-first design that spits out and manages the UI (HTML/CSS). I'm not sure what CSS preprocessors has to do with that, but I'm also confused - what is your opinion of Mavo?
- marvindanig 9y ago
  > I'm not sure what CSS preprocessors has to do with that… That even simpler step-ups like preprocessors with lower learning curves have not been adopted by the majority. Simplicity and lazy has a very high bar for any sort of competing tech. I agree with you that technical simplicity of HTML-first would feel a step backward because you have already climbed over the fence and accepted the issues of over-engineering that come with React/JSX/Webpack and 1000 other components. This of course doesn't mean HTML-first approach would be replaced anytime soon. Even with likes of Facebook betting their entire ass behind it. On Mavo: Not tried it yet, but I do see a promise in it. Also, coming from Lea Verou makes it all the more compelling.
  - YCode 9y ago
    It's true, there is a steep learning curve. I'm not sure that's a good comparison though, for example I don't use CSSPS but it has nothing to do with the learning curve. So for comparison, how do the majority of people design sites? Say you're making a HN or Twitter clone, what is the process from cradle to production to get the site up and running?